Chuckles1

I wanted to get some lower gears on my 2007 Fantom Cross. It came with 9 speed 12/26 and 39/48 rings on 130 BCD crankset, so I couldn't put smaller ring on. It has Tiagra shifters, ST 4500 I believe, and came with RD 5600 (105 10-speed) derailleur. I've often read that all Shimano 9 speed shifters and RD are compatible, so... I bought and installed CS-HG400-9 (11/36) and Alivio RD-M4000 SGS 9-speed derailleur. After straightening hanger and much adjustment, it still won't shift properly. Shifters are not pulling enough cable. The 9-speed road shifters aren't compatible with 9-speed MTB derailleur. What's my best option at this point? I really want those lower gears, but don't want to spend a fortune on an old but beloved bike.

katsup

I've run Sora (3500) shifters with both a Deore and Deore XT 9sp rear derailleur and it worked good. There was an issue at first, which I isolated to the cable housing. Once replaced it shifted well.

You can use a Wolf Tooth roadlink with your current derailleur to get more range.

Note that a Sora RD-3500 medium cage rear derailleur could likely handle a 36T.

Maelochs

Shadow derailleurs will nopt work with road shifters. Shimano stuff up to 9-speed should still be comaptible, and older 9-speed MTB stuff should be, but the new Alivio is the Shadow architecture and has a specific MTB cable pull requirement, as do all 10 and up Shimano MTB derailleurs, as far as I know. If you can find an older Shimano 9-sped non-Shadow derailleur (not sure how old that is now) you might be alright.

I am sure others know a lot more than I and will assist you.

There are also adjuster pulleys ... i forget the name, Travel-mate? Shift-mate? which can adjust for various components. (Jtek ShiftMate Gear Shifting Adapter for Shimano Campagnolo and SRAM components)

Kapusta

I am pretty sure “shadow” just refers to the shape of the RD, not the cable pull. I know for many XT RDs, shadow and non-shadow of the same speed designation are completely interchangeable.

The “specific cable pull requirement” for Shimano 9 speed MTB RDs is the same as for Shimano 9 speed Road RDs.

Of course, maybe shimano changed the cable pull on the Alivio line for some other reason. But if they did that, Alivio would become incompatible with any other 9 sp mtb shifter/RD.

Where have you read that they did this?

Kapusta

Are you sure you have the cable attached to the right side of the bolt on the RD?

Was the alignment checked with a proper tool, if it was not checked with a proper tool then it was not really checked.

Maelochs

I'd contact Shimano if the solution wasn't immediate and simple ...

Not looking for a fight here, but I used to do a lot of swapping, rebuilds, upgrades ... the common wisdom ( ) back a ways was that everything Not "Shadow" was compatible with road gear, and everything "Shadow" (at that timer 10 speeds and up) wouldn't work with road shifters.

This page (https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycl...ing_Dimensions) seems to indicate that different shifters do indeed pull different lengths of cable. Different rear derailleurs have different actuation ratios (move different amounts per unit of cable pulled.)

https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/q...ar-derailleurs

back in the late 2000's, Shimano introduced the 'Shadow' dérailleur (refer OP's link) which brings the deraileur in behind the cassette, providing it more protection from knocks and damage. A short time (couple of years?) later they added the 'clutch' which in reality is nothing to do with Shadow, but Shadow was still new, and they still sold non-shadow dérailleurs in the lower spec ranges, so the needed to keep Shadow in the name of this new model. Even though/because all clutch dérailleurs were also Shadow, it made a lot of sense for marketing to call them 'Shadow Plus' rather than call them 'Plus'

Unfortunately because of the close time frame between introduction, Some people mistakenly believe 'Shadow' means it has a clutch, as they never saw a 'Shadow' without the clutch.

https://forums.mtbr.com/beginners-co...s-1018960.html

Shadow is a lower profile cage and Shadow derailleurs have a more direct housing routing at the derailleur. Shadow plus has a clutch. If your bike is working well with your present derailleur then you don't need a clutch.

https://forums.mtbr.com/shimano/2011...ml#post7343607

Question: 2011 10 Speed mtn and road STI

I'm sure this has been addressed, but I am too lazy to search.

I assume the answer is yet, but would like to see if anyone knows for sure.....

Will the new 2011 XT 10 speed rear derailleur work with 105, ultegra 10 speed shifters?

Response: No, they won't. This has been covered ad nauseum in the drivetrain forum. Its even stickied.

Shimano 10 speed mtn shifters and rear derailleurs are incompatible with any other shimano 10 speed or 9speed shifters and rear derailleurs. Neither the 10speed roar bar cons or STI will work with the 10 speed XT derailleurs.

However, another poster notes: you can use 9 spd MTB derailleurs with 10 spd road shifters. you've been able to do this for years. whats the big deal?

(This thread is from 2010. Not sure what has changed (except Shadow Plus, and the fact that Shadow design is now applied to 9-speed Alivio and not just Depre, XT, and XTR.)

A 2014 post (https://forums.mtbr.com/shimano/road...le-782051.html) says: Only 9 speed and less Shimano road/mtb shifters can be cross compatible. The issue is the cable pull being different. Shimano decided to either deny us of that or it was an engineering side effect for 10 and 11 speed systems. If you did a hack to allow otherwise, we'd LOVE to hear it!!! (At that time the Alivio was Not, I do not believe, Shadow.)

A 2012 thread has this: “I know what works for me and that isn't case. I have a pinarello rokh that I use strictly for my road touring bike, (no off-road touring), and my shifters on that bike are shimano ultegra 6700 10spd, crank shimano ultegra 6700 compact gearing, and my rear derailleur is a shimano rd-m980 sgs with a shimano cs-m980 cassette 11-34. I use all XTR for my rear components on all my touring bikes because they offer me the kind of security that none of the shimano road components have. I mean... I have never had a single rear XTR component ever fail me, whereas I have had many shimano rear road components fail me miserable.”

Seems to me the poster should contact Shimano and inquire about whether there is a difference in cable pull with the shifters …. And a different ration with the rear MTB derailleurs (the two would be designed to provide the same actual movement across the cogs as road, because cog spacing is uniform across road and MTB.)

Kapusta

I think you are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be.

The OP has 9 speed Road shifters and a 9 speed MTB RD.

Shimano 9 speed road and mtb shifters and RDs are completely interchangeable. Always have been. "shadow" vs "non-shadow" makes no difference.

The conventional wisdom you mention of what worked and did not work with Shadow I have not heard before, and it is fundamentally flawed. It may have worked out OK for a while, because Shadow was first introduced with 10 speed. But the issue was not that they were "shadow", it was that they were 10 speed. The "Shadow" part is a Red Herring. For example, 9 speed XT Shadow and XT 9 speed Non-Shadow RDs are totally interchangeable. There is no difference in cable pull.

TrojanHorse

I put this one on my wife's tiagra triple to get more take-up capacity:

Shimano Deore 9-Speed Mountain Bicycle Rear Derailleur - RD-M591

works great. Make sure you get the one with the shift cable barrel adjuster, the newer ones lack that feature.

subgrade

Not true. 9 speed Shadow derailleurs like XTR RD-M972, XT RD-M772 have been around circa 2007, predating Shimano10 speed MTB derailleurs altogether. 9 speed SLX RD-662 and Deore RD-M592 followed a couple years later, and by now there are 9 speed Shadow derailleurs for all groups down to Altus. (Shadow Plus is still available only on 10 speed and up, but that is irrelevant, as you yourself pointed out).

Any 9 speed Shimano derailleur should work with any Shimano 9 speed shifter (also any 6-8 speed shifters except Dura Ace) and all 10 speed road shifters (except Tiagra 4700). See here: https://bike.bikegremlin.com/1278/bi...compatibility/

MikeyMK

Shadow are a different ratio, they don't work with road or classic MTB. Or touring, or whatever.

My DynaSys 10sp XT setup is clutched shadow and isn't compatible with any of my other stuff. The crimp bolt part of the derailleur stays where it is, the cage is pulled downwards mechanically as one down-shifts, it works differently and requires the different ratio.

I'm only using it as the shifter design allows me to hang the shifters lower, so they don't foul the e-tandem's accelerator lever or horn button.

subgrade

10speed and 11speed Shadow RD's don't. 9speed Shadow RD's do, they have the same pull ratio.

Kapusta

Because it is SHIMANO MTB 10 SPEED!

It has NOTHING to do with the fact that it is Shadow. Shimano just happened to go with Shadow on all their MTB stuff when they went to 10 speed.

Your RD will work with ANY Shimano 10 speed MTB shifter.

Likewise, 9 speed shadow and non-shadow RDs are completely interchangeable.

Kapusta

This is true, but to be more concise, ALL 10 and 11 speed Shimano MTBs don’t.

The “Shadow” part is a Red Herring.

Kapusta

I just want to make clear lest anyone reading this thread comes away with the wrong idea.....

Whether or not a derailleur is “Shadow” is completely irrelevant in terms of compatibility.

If you logic model or decision flow chart for determining compatibility involves “Shadow”, then it is flawed and you need to start over.

Here is a good article from BikeRadar regarding mixing and matching. Nowhere is Shadow mentioned as being relevant:

https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buy...r-derailleurs/

MikeyMK

The derailleur will not work with 6,7,8,9 speed shifters, yet all those shifters use the generic rear derailleurs.

The problem isn't the shifter (of course a 10sp shifter will only work with a 10sp cassette).
The problem is the rear derailleur has s different swing ratio.

Kapusta

What the heck is a "generic" rear derailleur?

I am not sure about 6 sp, but as far as 7 sp and above (in Shimano).... ANY 7-8-9 sp MTB or 7-8-9-10 sp Road shifter will shift ANY 7-8-9 sp MTB or 7-8-9-10 speed Road rear derailleur. At least for anything made by Shimano in the past 25 years. This includes Shadow Derailleurs, which can be found in 9 speed. This is because Shadow has NOTHING to do with cable pull ratio.

I don't even know what you are saying here. 10 sp MTB shifters and RDs are BOTH incompatible with all the MTB and Road shifters and RDs I mention above. The 10 sp MTB shifter and RD are meant to work together. That means the shifter won't work with those "generic" RDs either.

But none of this has anything to do with "Shadow". Nothing. Nada. Zip. It is a red herring that is just confusing you. Forget about Shadow, it is utterly irrelevant.

MikeyMK

It's erm...
They're the ones. Pretty much everything.
So yes, this clutched, Shadow type DynaSys rear derailleur is a different ratio than the 'generic' 1:1 units you mention, which is the whole point. And it won't work as a replacement for a generic rear derailleur on either road/MTB or whatever unless the shifters match.

I was not aware gear numbers had to match, that either DynaSys is only 10speed or whatever. Neither do I intend to find out, as I'm planning on a return to smoother and faster 8speed shifting if I can find a cassette with my preferred ratios in an 8 set.

MikeyMK

It's erm...
They're the ones. Pretty much everything.
So yes, this clutched, Shadow type DynaSys rear derailleur is a different ratio than the 'generic' 1:1 units you mention, which is the whole point. And it won't work as a replacement for a generic rear derailleur on either road/MTB or whatever unless the shifters match.

I was not aware gear numbers had to match, that either DynaSys is only 10speed or whatever. Neither do I intend to find out, as I'm planning on a return to smoother and faster 8speed shifting if I can find a cassette with my preferred ratios in an 8 set.

Incidentally, for those needing to know, the DynaSys logo;

subgrade

Oh ffs...

Look here:

The following derailleurs are ALL Shadow design, NONE of them has a clutch, and ALL will work with ALL Shimano 7,8,9 speed MTB and 7,8,9,10 speed road shifters (except Tiagra 4700).
NONE of them will work with 10 sp and higher MTB or 11sp and higher road shifters.
(Although, to make things a bit more complicated, XT, SLX and Deore have 10 speed versions that look identical (the last number in their model code is 3 instead of 2), but will work only with 10 speed MTB shifters.)


RD-M972, introduced in 2007.


RD-M772, introduced in 2007.


RD-M662, introduced in 2008.


RD-M592, introduced in 2010.


RD-M4000, introduced in 2014.


RD-M3000, introduced in 2015.




RD-M2000, introduced in 2017.

Kapusta

You seem rather confused, making points with info that is either irrelevant ("clutched, Shadow-type") or simply wrong ("Pretty much everything", "1:1"), and whatever-ing the parts you don't want to be bothered to learn about. I would try to straighten some of this out, but...

Probably a good move for you to just stick with Shimano stuff 9 speed and under if you don't want to learn anything about shifter/RD compatibility. I can tell you that 9 speed Shadow will work with all your "generic" (whatever exactly that means) stuff, but I don't think you are going to listen.

The bottom line is that a 9sp shadow RD is compatible with the OPs shifters. You are welcome to remain confused by whatever you seem to think is relevant here, but that fact remains.

MikeyMK

Well I mentioned DynaSys from the start, but it's something you still haven't covered.

Some Shadow derailleurs are DynaSys and no, these will not work with the OPs non-DynaSys shifters...

subgrade

That is somewhat irrelevant to the topic as the OP has neither DynaSys derailleur nor shifters.

DynaSys is a Shimano marketing term to denote different cable pull ratio from all the previous 9-and-below speed systems. It has nothing to do with Shadow vs. non-Shadow or clutch.

shelbyfv

Hopefully by now OP has figured out which posters have helpful info and which are leading him astray

BlazingPedals

Am I the only one to think that straightening a derailleur hanger is a Bad Idea(tm)? Those things are sacrificial and they're made of aluminum. Once bent, you can consider them ruined because bending them back won't be a permanent fix.

nomadmax 

When I was working on bike patrol we straightened aluminum RD hangers. To my knowledge none ever broke after they were re-bent unless it involved another crash. That said, a number of them broke during the straightening process. I came to the conclusion that success depended on a number of things, not the least of which was how much it needed to be bent to come back into alignment.