Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Tandem Cycling
Reload this Page >

Santana Tandems - STATUS? 2021 European Bike & Cruise

Notices
Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

Santana Tandems - STATUS? 2021 European Bike & Cruise

Old 10-21-20, 09:41 AM
  #1  
Monoborracho
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Monoborracho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Small town America with lots of good roads
Posts: 2,684

Bikes: More than I really should own.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Santana Tandems - STATUS? 2021 European Bike & Cruise

We are booked for a European cruise and bike trip with Santana Adventures for next summer. With Europe now closed to Americans, and some of the cruises scheduled for April, May, June, and July, it is beginning to look less and less likely that Europe will open up. Myself, I consider it a 50-50 chance by next summer.

Is anyone here booked for one of those trips and has anything come down about cancellations or postponements on the trips for early 2021? Thanks
__________________
"You can vote your way into Socialism but you have to shoot your way out."
Monoborracho is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 10:18 AM
  #2  
samkl 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 435

Bikes: 2004 Trek 520, resto-modded 1987 Cannondale SR400, rando-modded 1976 AD Vent Noir; 2019 Wabi Classic; 1989? Burley Duet

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 35 Posts
Probably for the best... many of those European countries are socialist.
samkl is offline  
Likes For samkl:
Old 10-22-20, 05:24 PM
  #3  
LV2TNDM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 492

Bikes: Cannondale tandems: '92 Road, '97 Mtn. Mongoose 10.9 Ti, Kelly Deluxe, Tommaso Chorus, Cdale MT2000, Schwinn Deluxe Cruiser, Torker Unicycle, among others.

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked 65 Times in 47 Posts
Nothing worse than adventuring in a country with excellent mass transit that takes bikes, cool free universities that further humanity's intellectual endeavors, universal health care and social safety net so you don't have the crime found in America. And not being robbed at gunpoint really makes me long for home. Totally sucks.
LV2TNDM is offline  
Likes For LV2TNDM:
Old 10-24-20, 02:01 AM
  #4  
conspiratemus1
Used to be Conspiratemus
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hamilton ON Canada
Posts: 1,489
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times in 154 Posts
Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
Nothing worse than adventuring in a country with excellent mass transit that takes bikes, cool free universities that further humanity's intellectual endeavors, universal health care and social safety net so you don't have the crime found in America. And not being robbed at gunpoint really makes me long for home. Totally sucks.
I'm assuming you are both trading good-natured tongue-in-cheek shots at each other. But still....

1) Mass transit is often too crowded with Greta Thunberg clones and other budget-conscious travelers squatting in the parts of railway cars nominally designated for bikes for it to be bike-friendly in practice. I like trains. We've tried to use trains to get around after arrival at our gateway airport, but it's just too damned difficult, compared to getting a connecting flight.
2) Free university is worth about what you pay for it. The selective, competitive schools that give you an entrťe into the well-paid bureaucratic and financial echelons of the social-democratic utopia are most assuredly NOT free. And still weak enough on STEM that the French are starting to have angst about it. Irrelevant to travelers and visitors in any case.
3) Universal health care is relevant for residents, not for tourists. If you get sick or injured or want elective surgery as a visitor, you will pay retail. Just like in Canada.
4) " . . .Social safety net so you don't have the crime. . ." ?? Evidence that this sneaky implication of causality is true? Britain's NHS covers everyone, even for dental care, and in many families, no one has worked, ever, in 3 generations. Yet alcohol- and meth- fueled knife crime in the post-industrial northern cities (where tourists don't visit) is a serious problem for residents. Tourists in busy destinations in Europe (esp. Prague, Rome, Naples, Nice) are often victims of usually non-violent crime, although you can be injured by a purse snatcher on a Vespa, even though much of the country seems to be on benefits. Buying off the criminal class might reduce predation of wealthier neighbourhoods by the dangerous classes, but doesn't seem to have much bribery value when the town is full of distracted and careless tourists. And even in meek and mild Canada, a German tourist was shot in the head by local no-goodniks as he was just driving along with his family on an Alberta highway on their way to visit the Rocky Mountains, Because the perps are a protected species, they are still living free along that road, which bicyclists would normally use as the alternative to the Trans-Canada Highway to ride to Banff. But mostly tourists to France stay out of the banlieus of Paris and tourists to North America stay out of Flint and Rexdale (Toronto). On both sides of the Atlantic tourists can afford to avoid the bad neighbourhoods, the residents can't. The welfare state has very little to do with the risk of a tourist getting robbed at gunpoint.

Even with the Soviets on their borders from 1945, Europeans knew that Americans were more existentially fearful of "losing" Europe to communism than Europeans were themselves. So they played you: they spent their Marshall Plan money and then their tax money (as reborn capitalism made them rich) on welfare instead of on their own defense, knowing that you would fight the Sovs for them if it came to that. But now that America doesn't really care about Russia any more, what happens to the assumption that America will risk nuclear war with them over Latvia or Turkey (or Canada.) What happens to the welfare state if defense spending in Europe (or Canada) has to rise to 5-6% of GDP to counter an aggressive Russia (or China)?

No country in Europe any more is "socialist", in the correct sense that the state owns the means of production. Britain came close when it nationalized so many dying industries after the War. But the legacy of socialism's toxic labour relations lives on in the form of wildcat strikes (and protests by farmers angry about cutbacks in subsidies) that can seriously wreck a visitor's travel plans. By "socialism", most North Americans mean the high redistributive taxes it takes to fund a European-level welfare state. These are important drivers of costs of travel as a visitor in Europe, without any compensating benefit. Indeed, high taxes levied on tourists the world over help fund the welfare state for the locals. (The most popular taxes are those paid by someone else.)
But Europe, especially "egalitarian" Scandinavia, may be having second thoughts about their redistributive taxation, now that they see it being harvested by new arrivals (migrants and asylum-seekers) who don't look like them and who don't participate in the labour force (i.e., work.) Lars doesn't mind being taxed heavily to pay for Sven's unemployment benefit or his kids' free day care, because he trusts that Sven will do the same for Lars when Lars is out of work. But Sami and Ahmed haven't worked since they arrived in Stockholm, and they and their children draw benefits all the time. Most of Europe (other than the U.K.. and France from their former colonies) is not used to having legal, invited immigrants from faraway places who speak your language. The notion that people who look different can be productive Swedish citizens helping to fund the welfare state is not a commonplace there. So when unskilled migrants who speak no Swedish fetch up in large numbers, liberal Sweden becomes very illiberal indeed. This is the dark side of redistributive social welfarism: the consensus breaks down when an identifiable group seems to be all takers and no makers.
conspiratemus1 is offline  
Old 10-24-20, 09:12 AM
  #5  
act0fgod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 91

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac Pro, Bilenky Coupled Tandem, Calfee Tetra Tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Sorry, it appears no one has information on the tours...I guess your tagline did invite these responses.
act0fgod is offline  
Old 10-24-20, 07:40 PM
  #6  
ianbal
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
We are scheduled for an April trip with Santana and were scheduled for a June 2020 trip to Japan. Based on our experience with the Japan trip and hearing similar things from other people on later trips this year that were cancelled, you will not receive a definitive answer from Santana on cancellation or postponement until close to a month out from the departure date.
ianbal is offline  
Old 10-25-20, 12:06 PM
  #7  
Krenovian
Senior Member
 
Krenovian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Park City, UT
Posts: 92

Bikes: Hers: Volagi Liscio, Kestrel 200 SCI, Niner Jet9 RDO, Ellsworth Truth. His: Kestrel 200 EMS, Niner Jet9, Psyclewerks Wild Hare. Ours: Paketa V2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Our experience was similar to ianbal. We had a trip from Dubrovnik to Venice booked for the first part of October. Initial communications from Santana Adventures suggested they would rebook the trip for 2022. Then later communications seemed to imply that they were going to go ahead with the trip despite travel restrictions for US residents in Italy and testing requirements in Croatia which were difficult to meet.. Finally, the trip was cancelled and rebooked for late September 2021 about a month out from our embarkation date. I suspect SA would have cancelled the trip earlier but the ship charter company wasn't willing to cancel their contract with SA. SA made it sound like it cost them more money than they had already paid out in getting the company to rebook the charter for 2021.
Krenovian is offline  
Old 10-28-20, 10:11 PM
  #8  
LV2TNDM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 492

Bikes: Cannondale tandems: '92 Road, '97 Mtn. Mongoose 10.9 Ti, Kelly Deluxe, Tommaso Chorus, Cdale MT2000, Schwinn Deluxe Cruiser, Torker Unicycle, among others.

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked 65 Times in 47 Posts
Wow, hit a nerve?

The US led the world in progressive taxation up until about 1980. Prior to that our GDP performed incredibly well. "Trickle-down economics" is a proven failure.

The US won't be "socialist" anytime soon, but it very badly needs a strong dose of same to rectify decades of stolen American prosperity.
LV2TNDM is offline  
Likes For LV2TNDM:
Old 10-29-20, 08:30 AM
  #9  
conspiratemus1
Used to be Conspiratemus
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hamilton ON Canada
Posts: 1,489
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times in 154 Posts
Fortunately, even from the perspective of this disinterested foreign observer, the voters in the U.S. Democratic primary thoroughly repudiated both your diagnosis and your therapeutic prescription.

Last edited by conspiratemus1; 10-29-20 at 08:45 AM.
conspiratemus1 is offline  
Old 11-17-20, 03:22 PM
  #10  
SeniorCycling
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Krenovian View Post
Our experience was similar to ianbal. We had a trip from Dubrovnik to Venice booked for the first part of October. Initial communications from Santana Adventures suggested they would rebook the trip for 2022. Then later communications seemed to imply that they were going to go ahead with the trip despite travel restrictions for US residents in Italy and testing requirements in Croatia which were difficult to meet.. Finally, the trip was cancelled and rebooked for late September 2021 about a month out from our embarkation date. I suspect SA would have cancelled the trip earlier but the ship charter company wasn't willing to cancel their contract with SA. SA made it sound like it cost them more money than they had already paid out in getting the company to rebook the charter for 2021.
So what is Santana doing if you cannot make the new scheduled trip? And what happens if you are not comfortable traveling with the pandemic? We have asked them what all of their policies are about safeguards and did not get a response from them. Just curious what travelers are thinking about 2021 trips and Santana's policies and itineraries. We have booked a trip and are hesitant with international travel - even in 2021. Just our own preference and it's seems to be difficult to get answers.
SeniorCycling is offline  
Old 11-17-20, 04:57 PM
  #11  
reburns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 345

Bikes: 2005 Trek T2000; 2005 Co-motion Speedster Co-pilot; various non-tandem road and mountain bikes

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 18 Posts
Summer 2019 we booked a trip for May 2021 with Santana. It became clear to me by this summer that we would not want to get on an airplane or cruise ship by May next year, so I asked Bill to try to resell our reservation. Not sure if heíll be able to do that or not. I expect that heíll end up postponing the tour if it canít happen when scheduled, perhaps by a year, which is what heís been doing with 2020 tours. We insured the trip, but the insurance wonít cover us if the trip happens as planned and we just arenít comfortable going. Not sure if we would be covered if the trip is rescheduled. In any event, Iíve written off the cost in my mind, and will just be interested in seeing how things play out and responding as appropriate. I donít plan on committing to any more non-refundable events in any event.
reburns is offline  
Old 11-18-20, 06:45 PM
  #12  
chichi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Santana rescheduled our August trip to May of next year. We are not happy with the way they have handled the reschedule or cancellation.
chichi is offline  
Old 11-23-20, 08:38 AM
  #13  
Monoborracho
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Monoborracho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Small town America with lots of good roads
Posts: 2,684

Bikes: More than I really should own.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by SeniorCycling View Post
So what is Santana doing if you cannot make the new scheduled trip? And what happens if you are not comfortable traveling with the pandemic? We have asked them what all of their policies are about safeguards and did not get a response from them. Just curious what travelers are thinking about 2021 trips and Santana's policies and itineraries. We have booked a trip and are hesitant with international travel - even in 2021. Just our own preference and it's seems to be difficult to get answers.
Originally Posted by reburns View Post
Summer 2019 we booked a trip for May 2021 with Santana. It became clear to me by this summer that we would not want to get on an airplane or cruise ship by May next year, so I asked Bill to try to resell our reservation. Not sure if heíll be able to do that or not. I expect that heíll end up postponing the tour if it canít happen when scheduled, perhaps by a year, which is what heís been doing with 2020 tours. We insured the trip, but the insurance wonít cover us if the trip happens as planned and we just arenít comfortable going. Not sure if we would be covered if the trip is rescheduled. In any event, Iíve written off the cost in my mind, and will just be interested in seeing how things play out and responding as appropriate. I donít plan on committing to any more non-refundable events in any event.
Roger that !

Originally Posted by chichi View Post
Santana rescheduled our August trip to May of next year. We are not happy with the way they have handled the reschedule or cancellation.
Our trip for next summer has been rescheduled and brought FORWARD by one week. We were advised not to buy airline tickets yet (they'll be cheaper 3 or 4 months out), and there is no information on the pre-tour activities that we have enjoyed in the past. So we are seven months out and, IMHO, it looks very doubtful that the EU will open to US citizens by then. We are at least 8 months into the pandemic, it's more rampant now than it was, and the trip is seven months away. I consider a trip to EU next summer to be a very low probability event. Not gonna happen.
__________________
"You can vote your way into Socialism but you have to shoot your way out."
Monoborracho is offline  
Old 11-24-20, 05:57 PM
  #14  
chichi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Gee, I am surprised to hear that other people are not comfortable traveling next year, Bill assured me that we were the only couple that was not comfortable traveling next year!
( in spite of the fact that 4 of the 5 couples in our group wanted out)
chichi is offline  
Old 12-02-20, 09:58 PM
  #15  
conspiratemus1
Used to be Conspiratemus
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hamilton ON Canada
Posts: 1,489
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times in 154 Posts
With the vaccine(s) at hand, 2022 is the year to hope for a revival of foreign travel (or even to see your folks in Wichita or Swift Current.) If any travel operator is still in business by then. And if acceptance of the vaccine by the general, low-risk-of-dying population is high enough over the next 15 months to achieve herd immunity -- 70% is my guess. That's a big ask. Every vaccine refuse-nik who convinces his friends not to get vaccinated causes herd immunity to recede further into the misty unattainable future. Never before have we attempted to immunize an entire adult population against a contagious disease.* ... this while the pandemic is still in progress. And this is a disease that most people have no reason to be afraid of for their own sake (unlike polio, which terrified people as it killed and crippled healthy children every summer.) That's why most successful vaccines are given to school kids -- the state can make vaccination a condition of school attendance but it can't compel a free-riding adult to be vaccinated on pain of fine or jail. But kids aren't the target population for this disease -- vaccinating them won't do it. It's gotta be us.

So if you want to travel in 2022, get vaccinated as soon as you get your turn and be seen and be heard to be an enthusiastic supporter of mass vaccination.

-Do it for selfish reasons if you like. (Like, "I don't care about people dying in nursing homes and poor neighbourhoods. I'm getting vaccinated, and I want you to, simply because I want to travel and go out for dinner and a concert again.") Or do it for altruistic reasons. Just do it.

-Be realistic and fair about risk. No vaccine, or airplane, or bicycle fork, can ever be proven to be 100% safe against all possible defects and mishaps. Around 100,000 people have received various vaccines in clinical trials without a single dangerous side effect. Yes, anything that occurs at 1 in a million we won't "see" (statistically) yet. But millions of high-risk people are going to get vaccinated before you are asked to roll up your sleeve. So we'll know a lot more about tiny risks very soon, thanks to their going first.

-None of this conspiracy stuff, OK? I'm doing my bit with this post. And do I look like a socialist?

But 2021 is out. The pandemic is causing too much disruption in countries with "good" governments, "bad" governments, and those in between. Turns out the people don't much care any more (if they ever did) what their governments tell them to do anyway. Death rates will fall (further) by spring in the "advanced" countries as high-risk people get vaccinated, but that alone won't lift restrictions on travel and on ordinary life. Resign yourself to continuing to discover your own back yard next year.

-------------
* A possible exception is tetanus. The enormous success of tetanus toxoid given to all Allied military recruits during the Second World War led to a decision to immunize the civilian population once peace returned. But tetanus isn't a contagious disease, and it occurs only after wounding, so it was feasible to give toxoid to adults as part of wound care -- that's the "rusty nail" metaphor --, and to infants and children, without necessarily getting it to every single person right away.

Last edited by conspiratemus1; 12-02-20 at 10:03 PM.
conspiratemus1 is offline  
Old 01-13-21, 09:42 PM
  #16  
Monoborracho
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Monoborracho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Small town America with lots of good roads
Posts: 2,684

Bikes: More than I really should own.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Very good post Conspiratemus. Iím with you all the way. Here we are a month later. I had two friends die last week from Covid, both late 60ís, one a healthy female and the other a probable diabetic male.

Itís real. A lot of younger folks, like my trainer and cycle group, know no one personally who had died. My age group, on the other hand, know several fatalities.

Iím 70 and self employed, which makes me both high risk and non essential. 😄😄😄.
__________________
"You can vote your way into Socialism but you have to shoot your way out."
Monoborracho is offline  
Old 01-15-21, 03:57 PM
  #17  
CaliTexan
Member
 
CaliTexan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 27

Bikes: 2019 Co-Motion Carrera (S&S) / 1998 Litespeed Tuscany / 2014 Wilier Zero 7

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 6 Posts
In USA, the numbers are better than some might think. We have had 23 million "test-confirmed" cases of Covid-19. The best guess is that for each person who tested positive, there are between 5 and 10 people who have been infected, but didn't know it, or for whatever reason, were not tested. So, as of now, we have somewhere between 100 and 200 million in USA who have been infected and have the immunity that results from surviving an infection.

If we need to have 70% immunity in the population in order for herd immunity to do its thing, the target is 230 million. We're either not far from that (or, in the worst case, more than 1/2 way there). We're adding vaccinated individuals and infected but recovered individuals every day. So, I think we'll get to herd immunity (which makes this less of a public health issue and more of an individual health issue) before too much longer.

However, I don't know what it will take to have countries and companies and individuals all conclude that its safe to travel and therefore resume scheduling the sorts of things like overseas bicycle trips that we had before 2020. That may actually be 2022. .
CaliTexan is offline  
Likes For CaliTexan:
Old 01-16-21, 09:20 PM
  #18  
quickrelease5
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 12

Bikes: 2019 Calfee tetra SRAM etap, 2009 colnago EPS, 2000 Trek 5.9 Domaine, 1978 Holdsworth professional

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Vaccinate the whole boat!

Best guess that 5-10 people have had the infection for each person who test positive? NO. And where are almost at heard immunity? NO!. Please provide some sort of reference for this propaganda, the reality is that the incidence of people with covid antibodies is about 20% in the US , and there is one extraordinary zip code in New York City, at the epicenter of the spring pandemic, where 50% of the population had evidence of prior infection, as reported by the CDC, JAMA and the NY times. .

The vaccine will be the fastest and safest route to heard immunity, and each time I come across some vaccine hesitancy, I ask " how many people do you know who have died of the vaccine" and then I ask "how many do they know who have died of Covid?". I will be taking some European river tours with my stoker on the tandem when the boat is filled with other like minded vaccinated tandem riders!! Stay safe my friends.
quickrelease5 is offline  
Old 01-17-21, 10:56 AM
  #19  
CaliTexan
Member
 
CaliTexan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 27

Bikes: 2019 Co-Motion Carrera (S&S) / 1998 Litespeed Tuscany / 2014 Wilier Zero 7

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Like many questions about COVID, firm and clear numbers are hard to come by. Most of what is believed is based on modeling, which always makes it less precise, and can be quite misleading. But you’ll find lots of studies/papers/models showing infections at a rate of 5-10 x number of confirmed cases. And we do have confirmed infections in USA of 23+ million. Here’s a quick sample from a quick web search just now.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...ng-100-million

https://reason.com/2020/07/23/there-...fatality-rate/

https://reason.com/2020/11/18/a-new-...y-0-4-percent/

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/down...05022020-1.pdf

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/21/...ovid-19-cases/

https://baptisthealth.net/baptist-he...december-2019/

None of this means we should be complacent. Just that it’s a complicated topic, and the headline often doesn’t match the reality. BTW, we got our first dose of the Moderna vaccine last week. We’re vaccinating at a rate of something like a million a day this past week. I want to take that tandem tour in France as soon as it seems feasible and reasonable. As I said, that may be 2022.
CaliTexan is offline  
Old 01-17-21, 11:27 AM
  #20  
CaliTexan
Member
 
CaliTexan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 27

Bikes: 2019 Co-Motion Carrera (S&S) / 1998 Litespeed Tuscany / 2014 Wilier Zero 7

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 6 Posts
And, I’m sorry to say, we’re adding test-confirmed COVID infections in USA at the rate of 200,000 per day during this current spike. Using the guesstimate of 5 to 10 times as many actual infections vs tested cases, that would mean we’re adding another 1 to 2 million of persons with immunity from the virus - earned by having been infected - every day to the totals. Plus the 1 million a day of persons with vaccination-derived immunity.

i would hope and expect the daily increase in immunity from infections falls and the daily increase in immunity from vaccination rises, but let’s assume for a moment that the total of newly immunized people every day remains the same. Since we think that we have 100 to 200 million in USA already immune, and adding 30-60 million per month to that total, we can see we’ll be making very good progress toward that 70% threshold of herd immunity (230 million out of 330 million in USA).

Last edited by CaliTexan; 01-17-21 at 11:34 AM.
CaliTexan is offline  
Old 01-18-21, 10:05 AM
  #21  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,729

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times in 115 Posts
More direct cycling question, Why would you go on a Santana Tour. We did a Santana tour to Hawaii several years ago and it was the worst trip we have ever taken.

The food and accommodations were of very mixed quality. The itinerary was way over scheduled with more time spent on ferries and transits than riding. ( one day, we ended a ferry ride at 9pm, and still had an 8 mile ride in the dark on a main trafficked road to get to the motel).There was virtually no support, with the participants doing all the work moving bikes and luggage. The choice of where to spend time was bizarre ( two and a half days on Malakai, but only a few hours on Lanai). There was zero on road support. Bill McCreedy actually said if you have a mechanical, just flag down a local with a pickup truck. Additionally, Bill is very opinionated, and I would simply say I do not share his tastes in where to stay, eat, and spend time.

McCreedy was also very rude to a number of participants when they asked questions which annoyed him. I use the term participants, as opposed to guests or customers, because in McCreedyís view you are a co participant, not a guest or a customer. At the beginning of the trip, he said they invite people to come along on their trips, so they can afford to do the trips. Thus itís not really a supported tour where youíre a guest; youíre doing a tour with the McCreedys, helping to pay for their vacation in the process.

This idea of group tour with a number of people pitching in together is certainly a viable model. The problem is that youíre paying the price for a fully supported luxury tour and getting essentially a do it yourself trip with support in booking hotels.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

Last edited by merlinextraligh; 01-18-21 at 10:14 AM.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 01-18-21, 10:15 AM
  #22  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,729

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times in 115 Posts
Continuing,

In fairness, I have to say that Bill has a certain core following for his tours. About half of the teams loved Santana tours, and were repeat participants. However, most of the rest of us, did not get it at all, and were highly disappointed.

Of the people,who like Santana tours, I wonder about their frame of reference. We’ve done a number of bike trips with VBT, Backroads and Trek Travel. For the money we spent on our Santana tour, we could have done a comparable Backroads trip, with better accommodations, much better support, guides who are polite to their customers, and a more flexible itinerary.

I don’t mean to offend anyone who likes Santana tours, because they clearly have a core group, of fans who love them. I would suggest that both Backroads, and Trek offer a much better value in my opinion
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 01-18-21, 07:39 PM
  #23  
reburns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 345

Bikes: 2005 Trek T2000; 2005 Co-motion Speedster Co-pilot; various non-tandem road and mountain bikes

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 18 Posts
We’ve done a half dozen tours and a few rallies with Santana in the last 10 years. We were initially attracted by the all-tandems nature of the events, which used to be hotel based with maybe 10-30 teams. We made some good friends on those trips and reuniting on subsequent trips is a big part of their repeat business.



Things have changed and now Santana tours are all ship based and include single bikes to fill the ship. We’re now aware of other tour operators that are focused on small groups of tandems, use hotels, and are customer driven.



I think Bill and Jan deserve credit for their promotion of the tandem lifestyle over their careers, but I don’t dispute any of your observations of the Santana travel experience. I don’t expect that they have any incentive to change as their tours still seem to quickly sell out.
reburns is offline  
Old 01-19-21, 09:58 AM
  #24  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,729

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times in 115 Posts
Originally Posted by reburns View Post



I think Bill and Jan deserve credit for their promotion of the tandem lifestyle over their careers, but I don’t dispute any of your observations of the Santana travel experience. I don’t expect that they have any incentive to change as their tours still seem to quickly sell out.
I agree with both of those statements. Without Santana, I don’t think you’d have as many people riding tandems in the US or the number of options for quality tandems that we do. They essentially created a market, and have been huge supporters of the tandem community.

I also think they’ll continue to do their tours the way they do. It’s working for them, I think in large measure because as you said, people like the tandem community aspect of it. Also, if Santana does it, it is by definition the “proper method”

My wife reminded of a comment Bill made at the start of our tour, which pretty much sums up my thoughts. He welcomed us on the trip, and was glad that we could come along on “their vacation.” And there’s nothing inherently wrong with that model or conception. I’m just just not going to pay Backroads, Trek Travel prices for it
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 01-20-21, 07:48 AM
  #25  
ianbal
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
We have done a number of trips with Santana (~12), have enjoyed doing them while seeing some great locations. I agree that one of the reasons we have continued doing them is seeing previous participants on subsequent trips. I have had some frustration with logistics on some Santana trips and increasingly so but also have seen Bill go to great lengths to make something work for participants when things went pear-shaped as well as the behavior you have described.

That said, we have seen them get bigger with more participants which has changed the nature of the trips. In response we have been doing a number of trips with smaller numbers of participants with other tour operators(though not yet either Backroads or Trek) that seem to suit us better now and are not always limited by having to be on a boat. FWIW, Santana have offered mechanical support with support vehicles for a few years now but not to the level I have heard offered by Backroads especially.

FWIW, we received an email about a week ago from Santana saying that the April 2021 Portugal trip has not been postponed so my original comment still seems to be holding true. That Portugal is closed for US citizens was not mentioned. We are just waiting for the inevitable with Croisi and Santana coming to agreement to the new date. Like others, we are disappointed in how this continues to be handled but as people are continuing to book 2022 tours with them, albeit at a slower pace to sellout, we expect it not to change. We won't be committing to future Santana events under the current terms and conditions.
ianbal is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.