pacemaker

I started to have some pain on the outside of my knee just below the joint. It seems like the pain stems from improper cleat allignment as I only feel it when I'm riding. What is the general concensus on how the cleats should be alligned? eg straight, slightly turned in etc. Also what is the correct knee position when pedaling. I've heard they should almost scrape the top tube on the down stroke, any truth to this? Thanks for your input.

Singlespeedster

Your pain soundl like an IT band issue. The Ilotibial band is a component of your leg muscles that attaches the tib/fib to the hip. (It is not a muscle) Pain here can be a good indicator that your saddle is too high, or that you may have a leg length discrepancy.

You cleats should be aligned with your feet, not the bike. When I set up cleats for a client I have them do a bunch of rigamarole to get placement as close to right as possible. Have a friend watch you as you take ten or so paces towards them (or walk towards a mirror) It is important to let your feet do what they will, don't try to point them straight or anything. If your natural inclination is to point your toes slightly out, this will affect cleat alignment. Another test is to sit ona counte and let your feet dangle while keeping your knees at a 90 degree bend. Again you are looking for what the natural inclination of your feet are, and you should set up your cleats to reflect this. If your toes want to point outboard, line up the cleats a bit inboard.

Are your arches high or low? And if they are high, do they collapse at all? If so, ou may be a candidate for cleat wedging to stabilize the foot through the pedal stroke.

big john

What he said. Really, there are so many variables, there is no rule on correct position, it depends on your body. I fought this for a long time and ended up using pedal extenders to get enough toe-out and so my size 49 heels wouldn't hit the chainstays. Everyone isn't symmetrical. A friend points his left knee way out in the middle of his stroke and it works fine. When people tried to convince him to keep it close to the bike, that's when the pain started. See a fit expert if you can.

botto 

OK, you caught my attention with this part (Connie Carpenter suggested the same thing in the book she co-wrote with Davis Phinney)


You REALLY caught me with this. What do you suggest for high - and i mean ridiculously high - arches, that haven't collapsed? wedges? how do they stabilize the foot?

Singlespeedster

The best thing for really high arches is an orthotic or footbed that provides ample arch support, especially for those running Sidi shoes. (Sidis are extremely well made shoes that fit great, but offer very little arch support.

When a high arch isn't supported correctly, it can cause wicked foot pain on the tendons below the metatarsals, and can contribute to symptoms of forefoot varus.

Forefoot varus refers to the tendency (in approximately 87% of people) of the foot to tilt up to the inside, when looking at teh foot from the front. In exaggeration, imagine standing on a flat surface and having your smallest toe planted on the floor and your big toe hanging in the air. As you pedal this will cause your knees to rock back and forth, causing pain. Also if the bike fit has been set up static, but the foot rolls more under load, then the seatpost height will not be correct, causing the afore mentioned Ilotibial band friction sydrome.

bbattle

There are these aluminum "box thingies" with pedal spindles that a bike fitter puts on your bike. He puts cleats for these boxes on your shoes and has you pedal. Two rods protrude out from the boxes. The bike fitter watches these then adjusts the boxes to line up the rods again. This process is repeated until the cleat is aligned.

Rotational
Alignment
Devices

Also check out the "Get orthotics!" thread.

botto 

you just described how my brother walks. his arches are even worse than mine. so high, in fact, that erays of his feet have been presented in various medical conferences

i do sometimes have the roll, but have managed to avoid major knee issues. for some reason my left knee acts up, and has never felt as 'solid' as the right, but it's never kept me off the bike.

johnny99

You need to align your cleats so your knees do not wobble or twist during your pedalling motion. Different people will prefer different cleat positions. Some people need to tilt (wedge) their cleats to be comfortable. If you're having trouble setting up your cleats, paying a professional to do it can save you a lot of time and potential injury. Find someone who really knows what they are doing, not some high school kid at the local bike shop.

Singlespeedster

I have high school kids working for me that I have sent to see Andy Pruitt to get clinicked on this knowledge. That said, it is important to make sure the person setting up your cleats knows what they are doing, regardless of their age or schooling.

mpearson76

I required orthotics, wedges, and rotational float to finally solve my vexing problem, of which IT band pain was a part. For the IT issue, I actually needed valgus wedging (tilt the outside of the foot upward--less common) because the outside of my foot extending too far stressed the IT (pushing down on the pedal with your leg extended and the outside of the foot angled too far down will force the knee outward). In addition, I had my feet placed all wrong because my it band and hip muscles were too tight, which pulled my knees outward. Lots of stretching the hips, glutes, and IT helped a ton. It was really hard to diagnose the problem precisely though, until I got a professional fitting.

Angus

Big John,
You mention that you use pedal extenders. I'm interested in those as well, but the Knee Savers won't work with my Shimano SPD pedals. Do you use clipless? If so, what kind?
Thanks.

pacemaker

Thanks for the info Single... I did the counter check and my left foot was naturally canted in more than my right, but my cleats are alligned the same on each foot; this may explain the problem. I have also been using SPD type pedals and have exp more lateral "give" than with my old Looks, which had no give at all. I think the "give" in the pedals is another source of the problem and I am plannig to go back to my Looks. I also recenltly raised my seat...hmmm, guess I'll be looking into seat position as well. Anyway, much obliged.

BlueBikeRider

I think I have an IT Band issue, but am not sure. Everyone mentions knee pain and the position of it as a sign. I don't have knee pain, but do feel this awful crunching on the upper outside of my kneecap. If I put my hand on it, it feel like tendon, ligament?? something, sliding very roughly over something else. It happens on the upstroke when pedaling.

My ankles (and therefore knees) tend to roll inward as I ride (or run for that matter). Will better cleat alignment and maybe a wedge help me out??

Al1943

You sound like a guy who needs float. Ever tried Speedplay pedals?

BlueBikeRider

Funny you should ask. The box just showed up this afternoon! That's why I was asking about cleat positioning. Wanted to make sure I do it right when I put them on.

P.S. Note the avatar...not a guy

Singlespeedster

Wedge wedge wedge!

That uncomfortable crunching sounds like it is your IT band sliding around over the femur. Stabilizing the foot through the pedal stroke should help.

BlueBikeRider

I just put my new speedplay pedals on the bike. It already feels much better. My foot feels much more stable. I'll do a few rides and if it still feel off, I'll get some wedges.

With the new setup, will the IT Band gradually stop that awful crunching? Anything else I can do to help things get back to a natural state?

Thanks for the help. Didn't mean to takeover a section of the thread, but I was about to post the same question.

Al1943

Sorry, didn't mean you were a guy, just "sounded like".... and I use guy in the unisex sense.

The Speedplays will take a little getting use to, usually a couple of rides. It helps to lubricate the cleats, at least until they're broken in. My wife and I both use X-1's. I also like Speedplays because they are the quickest to engage and release.

I've always had more luck with a high saddle position to relieve knee pain, as long as the legs don't go completely straight and the hips should not rock back and fourth. I'm not the expert though.

Al

big john

I know what you mean, you need wrench flats on the pedals, you can't use the 8mm allen. I use the cheaper SPD pedals, mtb style, and have used Looks with the extenders, too. I can't use clipless without the extenders.

LA_Rider

It doesn’t matter what pedals you use.

Your ITB will only get worse if you don’t do something to counter act the negative impact cycling has on it.

I’m currently in Physical Therapy for ITB syndrome.

BlueBikeRider

No worries. I use "guys" as a general term too.

I'm looking forward to doing some more riding with the speedplays and seeing how my knees react. I'm taking my bike back in to the shp this weekend to have the fit adjusted. I've switched out a lot of parts since having it done last. Again, hope that helps.

cheeseflavor

+1 on the Speedplays. Been using them now for going on two years and they are wonderful.

Steve

Medpilot

After reading this webpage https://www.thestretchinghandbook.com.../knee-pain.htm

I would agree with what LA_Rider wrote

curt in denver

Another +1 for Speedplay.

grasshutmedia

I thank all here for the advice on cleat position. I "toe in" a bit so that was good to read about.

My question: What about forward/back cleat position? Are there any guidelines to keep in mind?

Thanks.