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New bike advice - dedicated bike for brevets 400km - 1200km.

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Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling Do you enjoy centuries, double centuries, brevets, randonnees, and 24-hour time trials? Share ride reports, and exchange training, equipment, and nutrition information specific to long distance cycling. This isn't for tours, this is for endurance events cycling

New bike advice - dedicated bike for brevets 400km - 1200km.

Old 08-21-16, 03:56 PM
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New bike advice - dedicated bike for brevets 400km - 1200km.

I'm into randonneuring, and am a relative newb: have been riding a proper road bike for a little over a year, done a few centuries, a 200km brevet, and my weekend long rides have reached 140 miles (PR), ever rising. I aspire to 2019 PBP.

I'm currently riding a race geometry carbon frame, and I have finally rationalized buying another bike (I want to have one at work, one at home). My current bike - 2015 Cannondale Supersix Evo Hi Mod Dura Ace - had a professional fit over 8 sessions and has been dialed in pretty good, with some modifications for achilles tenditinitis (seat lower, clips closer to heel). It's a reasonable fit, with only a little bit of back soreness that I don't consider to be a problem with the fit, just my conditioning. I do believe that a more upright position, on wider tires/lower pressure, and a more compliant frame, would do me some good.

I'm looking to get a bike that will better suit me for longer brevets, and won't crack like my carbon frame did when I crashed it once in a group ride. I want to keep my carbon frame bike configured for shorter, faster rides, rather than transforming into what I want in a rando bike. (yes, I know, there is no such thing as a rando bike, any bike can be a rando bike.)

Current criteria I'm thinking for my next bike are:

* more Endurance type geometry
*I'm thinking lightweight steel over titanium, but could be convinced to stick with carbon (e.g. Trek Domane SLR)
*Definitely need lower gearing for hills on longer rides (currently 52/36 11-28), considering a triple chainring
*Dynamo hub front light to do away with current battery management stuff ( I do have Dinotte front and back, but that is just one full night's worth of riding)
*Ability to easily ride 28-33mm tires, using wider wheels (e.g. HED ardennes plus) with full size fenders (not road fenders) - I currently can barely do 25mm tires with mini road fenders, and external rim width no greater 20 mm or so.
*possibly Bar end shifters, easier fixing in the field


Currently, I'm thinking of getting the Rainier from Rodriguez Bikes in Seattle, made
with S3 or OX Platinum steel,
triple crankset with granny gears,
Son28 dynamo hub with HED Belgium plus rims,
Luxos U dynamo light that has USB charger built in,
full fenders installed, and
maybe S&S couplers for when I start travelling.


I'm most interested in hearing from those who have experience from the longer brevets (600km, 1200km).

thanks!

Last edited by Flounce; 08-21-16 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 08-21-16, 05:11 PM
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The Rodriguez Rainier is an excellent bike for your purposes. I purchased the Rod UTB model four years ago and love it even more now than when I first got it. The guys at R+E Cycles do a great job fitting their clients based on body measurements, physical limitations/ailments, their style of riding and goals. Mine, however, is more of a multipurpose, loaded-touring, 26"-wheelbase bike. In spite of that, I used it for completing the entire Super Randonneur series and it also took me successfully over the finish line at last year's PBP.

Have you thought where you're going to carry your gear on the bike -- in the rear or up front? For PBP I went with a front set-up but a steel fork with a special geometry for better handling. After discussing the cons and pros of low Vs. high trail forks, I went with a mid-trail steel fork for a happy medium. The guys at R+E can take care of all those things for you.

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Old 08-21-16, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Flounce
I'm into randonneuring, and am a relative newb: have been riding a proper road bike for a little over a year, done a few centuries, a 200km brevet, and my weekend long rides have reached 140 miles (PR), ever rising. I aspire to 2019 PBP.
Welcome to the sport! Like you, I started thinking ahead to the next PBP after one had recently happened -- it gave me a nice few years to work up to the longer distances and plan my (our) trip.

I'm looking to get a bike that will better suit me for longer brevets, and won't crack like my carbon frame did when I crashed it once in a group ride. I want to keep my carbon frame bike configured for shorter, faster rides, rather than transforming into what I want in a rando bike. (yes, I know, there is no such thing as a rando bike, any bike can be a rando bike.)
While it's true that "any bike can be a rando bike" it's nice to have separate machines dialed in for different jobs. My "rando bike" uses a bigger frame, a little more upright position, wider tires with fenders, and lower gearing than my other bikes. This allows my "go-fast" bike to stay optimized for shorter rides where the aggressive position, skinnier tires, and foolhardy 42/21 low gear don't really cause problems.

Your list sounds good to me. If I had PBP 2015 to do over again, I would have gotten the dyno headlight from the get-go. Juggling batteries and leaving the brightness on "low" in order to get them to the end sucked.

Oh, and regarding gearing: this is very personal/subjective, but the nice thing about PBP is that it is mostly rolling terrain. I had a 35" low gear that was plenty, and there are more than a few people who do it on single-speed/fixed-gear bikes. Rather than a triple, you might consider a compact or super-compact double with a modest-sized big ring, say 46T or 48T. As long as your cassette isn't too "tight", that lets you hang out in the big ring the vast majority of the time, and only shift to the inner ring for the really steep or long-duration climbs. That said, there is (or ought to be) no shame in installing a triple. Get what you need.
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Old 08-21-16, 11:15 PM
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ThermionicScott and Chris -

Thank you both for the advice.

Chris - that is a beautiful bike! Do you mind sharing with me the specs/options on it, if you have something you can cut and paste.

I see you got couplers as well... are you glad you got them or do you wish you didn't? I don't see myself needing to fly with the bike much, and am wondering if - for those few occasions - it's easier to just mail the bike to my destination in the traditional way and have them reassemble it.
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Old 08-21-16, 11:23 PM
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Triple (52-42-24) with a frame that will take 700 X 28 tires. 100 mile rides for me.

Fit seems to be the most important factor for me.

Put 39,000 miles on this Felt.
The only bike that I had a Perfect Fit.

Pic with 700 X 18 tires.

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Old 08-22-16, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Flounce
Chris - that is a beautiful bike! Do you mind sharing with me the specs/options on it, if you have something you can cut and paste.
Thank you! The specs on my bike are as follows:

* Frame made of Reynolds 725 with stays made of OX Platinum
* Custom "mid-trail" geometry steel fork with special fender plate, internal wiring for dynohub/lights, mid-fork eyelets (braze-ons) for a front rack/headlamp. If you'll have a front rack, send it to them ahead of time so they can make sure it's level.
* 460mm long chainstays for loaded touring - I highly suggest 425-430mm chainstays for a more nimble rando bike.
* 9-speed MTB gearing with Shimano M590 triple crankset with 48/36/22T and 12-28 cassette. I don't use the 22T much but when I do on super steep hills, I am stoked to have it. By the way, Shimano Hollowtech II cranksets work really well with travel S&S-coupled bikes if you need to remove it for packing (read next paragraph.)
* Gilles Berthoud adjustable front rack
* Cowbell 3 handlebars at shoulder length - 40 cm.
* Avid BB7 disc brakes
* Brooks B17 special leather saddle
* Custom wheels with White Industries rear hub and SON 28 dynohub.
* Lights: Edelux II (front) with Secula Plus taillight. I like the fact that the Edelux II comes with a durable full metal case and mount. One of my best friends bought the Luxos U on my recommendation for his custom Holland. The plastic mount broke in less than a year just under normal vibration. Unfortunately, Peter White did not respond to the warranty indicating he had crashed the bike, something that never happened. If you need to charge anything, I suggest using a power bank. They don't weigh much and their charging capacity for $50 bucks is really amazing.

If there's anything else above I forgot, let me know.

Originally Posted by Flounce
I see you got couplers as well... are you glad you got them or do you wish you didn't? I don't see myself needing to fly with the bike much, and am wondering if - for those few occasions - it's easier to just mail the bike to my destination in the traditional way and have them reassemble it.
As far as S&S couplers, you are going to read about people who like them and people who regret getting them. First, you must understand that this packing method involves virtually fully disassembling the bike (in some cases even removing the fork and crankset) before departure, wrapping everything in special protective fabric and then reassembling everything at your destination. If that's too much work and hassle for you, do not get them. I, personally, do not mind the extra work and love the mobility they allow when traveling. You're not hauling a big box at airports, hotels, trains, cabs, etc. You're not subject to cargo embargoes that airlines sometimes have during peak periods (i.e, bike boxes not allowed.) The extra $700 pay by themselves on two R/T international flights. I use the S&S backpack soft case and it has worked out well for me.

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Old 08-22-16, 07:52 AM
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I wouldn't deviate too much from your current fit. You can always move the bars up with spacers. You still want a high-performance fit. Maybe consider getting a fork built for a quill stem so you can experiment with height more easily.

With my first rando-specific bike, I moved the bars higher. When I took out some spacers to put it back, it really felt a lot better. Some people do ok with higher bars, so a quill makes sense. And you can easily go to ridiculous heights if you want.

I wouldn't go with a triple. I was trying to help a riding companion with his on a cold, rainy 400k in the middle of the night, and we got it so that he could use the outer two chainrings. And I always hit my knees on my bar end shifters, even though I have a really stretched out position. I think that if you keep your bike maintained, you shouldn't have any problem with integrated shift/brake levers. And it makes it a lot easier to shift when you are tired. If you are really concerned about the shift levers, you can have dt bosses put on with a bolt on cable stop and carry a dt shifter in a bag.

I would get the SON with integrated wiring. Makes tire changes much easier. I would look at
Eric Estlund at Winter for this kind of bike. And if think you might want couplers, I say it's a really good idea.

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Old 08-22-16, 07:57 AM
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I bought a used specialized Roubaix this year and I've enjoyed it more for riding brevets than I did a miyata 1000. The only thing about the roubaix is that 28mm tires is about as wide as can fit. I'd be happy with more. Perhaps the disc brake versions have more clearance. Specialized has the Diverge and Sequoia that might work better for fenders. I think the other big bike companies are making more bikes along those lines too. I was also surprised how little I miss having fenders on this bike, I did a 600k with a lot of heavy rain and didn't really miss 'em. I use a small handlebar bag for food/camera storage and on longer/cold rides I have a large saddlebag that I can put clothes and other stuff in, both dill pickle gear models. I just got a good deal on an ultegra triple so I'm gonna have the gears I need for long/steep climbing now too. I love my dynamo lights for night riding.
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Old 08-23-16, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
...

I wouldn't go with a triple....
I really don't understand this comment. I've ridden Sugino XD or Velo Orange triples for over 60,000km of randonneuring without once having any sort of problem. I can't imagine riding PBP without having a low, bailout gear--mine is 24 front, 34 rear. Compact doubles don't get small enough to be able to spin on the steepest hills.

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Old 08-24-16, 12:55 AM
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Well, the OP can decide what gears he needs and if he really needs a triple. I feel that most triples have a large chainring that is nearly useless.

I like the simplicity of a double. My next crank is going to be a sub-compact because I don't need the high gears given by a compact crank. The bike I have put the most miles on this year has a mtb double with 42/28 chainrings. The only reason I wouldn't put that on my rando bike is vanity, it's really ugly. I did a season of randonneuring on that bike and it worked really well for me.

I did my randonneuring this season on a compact with a 32 tooth small gear on the cassette and never regretted it too much. My main regret was that the big chainring was too big.

my bike didn't travel well and on the last big climb on PBP, I was physically holding the right shifter so that I could keep it in first gear. Since I did PBP in 2011, I've changed riding styles and I'm much more likely to sit and "spin" than stand, but I'm not really sure that a compact fails to provide a low enough gear for my riding style. As a climber, I'm a good descender. I am most comfortable climbing at a fairly low cadence, it's hard to undo 4 decades of bad habits. Too low of a gear doesn't work well for me. We're all different in that regard.
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Old 08-24-16, 06:43 AM
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I was in a similar position as you a few years ago thinking about getting into randonneuring. Most people I talked to advised me to start with a relatively inexpensive bike and complete a few series first before going with something custom. The logic is that you don’t know what you like until you have tried it a few times.

I ended up finding a new previous model year Jamis Aurora Elite at a local shop for around $1200. All I had to do was add a trunk bag, speedo, a couple of lights, and I was in business. I just completed my first full series this year on that bike and have decided that at least for the foreseeable future, a 1200k is not realistic given my family commitments. Since I’ll just be attempting one series a year for the next several years, I decided that the bike I have now is totally adequate for that. Even the battery powered lights are fine.

You may consider a similar approach, maybe ride a full series in 2017 & 18 and throw in a long one or two on a starter bike, then get a new bike for the PBP season in 2019 if you still have that goal. Just another option to think about. As an aside, I met a guy in our club who has a beautiful full-on custom rando 650b with dynamo, GB front bag, the works, and he hasn’t yet been able to fit a full series into his schedule. I’m sure he had the best intentions when he got the bike, but life just got in the way.
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Old 08-24-16, 10:28 AM
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Thank you all for the advice - including the discussion regarding gearing and delaying a custom rando bike until I find that I can actually make it to a 1200km brevet.
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Old 08-24-16, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Flounce
Thank you all for the advice - including the discussion regarding gearing and delaying a custom rando bike until I find that I can actually make it to a 1200km brevet.
In the other forums, we like to tell newbies that whatever they're riding now, its purpose is to inform them what they'll want/need out of their next bike. Randonneuring does that to you all over again. Just ride and take good notes on what works and what doesn't.
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Old 08-24-16, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Flounce
Thank you all for the advice - including the discussion regarding gearing and delaying a custom rando bike until I find that I can actually make it to a 1200km brevet.
There's also a few 1000km brevets being run in North America that might be worth checking out!
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Old 08-24-16, 10:58 PM
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One thing I will point out is that riding a 600k can be highly variable. Specifically, here in the southern part of the country, for half the year, you can ride a 600k with a Camelbak, two bottles, flat-fixing equipment, and that's ALL you need. Meanwhile, if you do the same thing where it's 30 degrees at night and 80 during the day, you'll be hauling a steamer trunk of clothing somewhere on the bike. So there's a big variation depending on where and when you ride, and the advice you'll get varies accordingly.


On a lot of rides longer than 400k, you'll either circle back to your motel or have drop-bags along the way, so you don't need to carry anything more than on a 400k.


On the triple- depends again on where you are. I've got a triple on my Sojourn, seldom use the small ring, use the large ring 98% of the time and the middle ring the other 2%. (I've got a 34-tooth rear, which helps with that, by the way, something to look into.)
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Old 08-25-16, 07:51 AM
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It sounds like you've put enough thought into it that I see no reason to delay going custom now. You'll have plenty of time to dial it in, get serious miles on it, and take it to PBP 2019.

Others pointed this out, but I did not see any mention of luggage on your new bike. Definitely something to think about.

Re: gearing. I know people love their triples, but with the wide-range options these days for both cranksets and cassettes, I just don't see the need anymore. If you are pushing 52/36t to 11/28t on a carbon bike, then maybe 50/34t to 11-32t might suit you for your new rando. Or even dropping down to 48/32t, 46/30t, etc. paired with 11-32t. But wait! There's more! You could get a long-cage MTB derailleur and go up to 36t in back. The options are endless.

Good luck with whatever you decide, and be sure to post pictures!
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Old 08-25-16, 12:19 PM
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Randonneuring definitely stresses the ability of a racing bike to hold everything you might want to stow. Even in mid-summer here in Pennsylvania it may get really cold at night. My rain jacket and knee warmers take up the slack then. I have had some bad experiences with shorts, and now I always carry a spare set on anything longer than a 300k. You can make up for this with something like a Revelet Viscacha seat bag, which is what I started using after the Ortlieb seat bag I have used for years finally needed a full overhaul

I agree that you should get more experience on 200k and 300k routes before going all-out on a custom.
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Old 08-25-16, 12:57 PM
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When I fall into some money to burn, I'm going to:

1. ask my mechanic / local bike shop owner to get me a new steel Torrelli Nitro, and
2. visit Gilbert at About us ? North Road Bicycle Imports and ask him to put together an appropriate rando bike and accessories. Gilbert may not look it now, but there is a very thin racer-boy inside him and also a somewhat pudgy randonneur inside him. I've never gotten any poor ar bad advice from Gilbert. I became acquainted with Gilbert via Adrian Hands (Adrian Hands Society) -- btw, although I have since met Gilbert in person, I never Adrian in person, but only shared several email exchanges. The only thing I will insist upon is that the bike have round tyres.


Maybe there is a similarly knowledgeable bike shop owner near you.

------------------------------------------------------

p.s. Although I never met Adrian, I have met Ian (Adrian was Ian's dad) -- Irregular Velo Adventures: Jul-29: OakElmOak 209-km Perm.


btw, I know that none of those sites above are actual links, I just didn't feel like taking the time.

Hmmn, the software turned thse no-link copied interenet addresses into actual links!
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Old 08-25-16, 04:39 PM
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If I fell into a bunch of money, I'd probably have Firefly build me a 650b rando with couplers. Until then, I have a randonneur in the queue in my frame shop.

I'm a member of the Adrian Hands Society. Still need to get the jersey. But I have to say he wasted quite a bit of his possible riding time, finishing with 2 hours left. I had 8 minutes left when they stamped my card. I guess if they have a society named after me that it will be a much more exclusive group.

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Old 08-25-16, 07:24 PM
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For carrying gear I've really found my dill pickle saddlebag ideal. Holds enough for a 600 with leg warmers,a long sleeve jersey, shorts, spare jersey, and a windbreaker. It just needs bag loops on the saddle... they are modelled on the carradice bags. I usually do 200 and 300 with just the dill pickle handlebar bag. It's much smaller than the bug bags favoured by the low-trail crowd and it just straps on without decaleurs or a special rack. The bags seem perfectly suited to randonneuring and the woman that makes them is an accomplished New England randonneur, her blog is worth a read.
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Old 08-26-16, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
....

I'm a member of the Adrian Hands Society. Still need to get the jersey. But I have to say he wasted quite a bit of his possible riding time, finishing with 2 hours left. I had 8 minutes left when they stamped my card. I guess if they have a society named after me that it will be a much more exclusive group.
For those haven't, find Adrian's blog write-up about his successful PBP ride. Yeah, he wasted a lot of time.

For even more wasted time, see his write-up of the Bulgarian 1200 he did, or rather, didn't do.

Both are reasonably interesting.
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Personally, I think the Adrian Society, which is clearly modeled on the Charlie Miller award, puts too much emphasis on the time limit. Actually, the only requirement is the time limit. However, ask anyone that ever rode with Adrian or met him on / during / after a ride, and the things that stand out are that he rode to have a very good time AND that he actually cared what the respondent would say / what they thought when he asked their opinion about cycling issues. He had almost no care about what someone had ridden.

He was the webmaster for the Raleigh cycling club, the Chapel Hill club, and at least two MS cycling clubs.

I've met non-randos that had met Adrian at Cycle North Carolina Mountain to the Sea rides and other less ambitious rides. They ALWAYS remark that Adrian actually cared what they thought and what they had done, even though they had done nothing compared to Adrian's cycling about.

I've ridden many miles with two particular randos that rode a lot with Adrian. Adrian could ride fast when he wanted, but what Adrian was about was having a good time, helping others to have a good time. (Btw, Adrian's Ian never rode a single rando ride with his dad, and took up the sport to honor his dad when Adrian could no longer do such rides due to Lou Gehrig's Disease issues.)

I wish the Adrian Society could measure and admit members on that, but those are not things that one can objectively measure. You can experience them, but I don't know how one could measure them. On the other hand, most everyone recognizes and knows when they've encountered an "Adrian personality." Each of you reading this could probably mention someone with "Adrian spirit."

(The photo is of a non-rando recreational cyclist who usually rides 20-30 miles, mostly on MUPs, and Adrian at a CNC evening party. Adrian is the one in the outlandish outfit.)

Last edited by skiffrun; 08-26-16 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 08-27-16, 01:25 AM
  #22  
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Thanks for the advice, everyone.

10wheel - beautiful bike!

ChrisPringle - thanks for the specs, may come in handy

Appreciate the input from the others about choosing a bag. I have a Revelate Design Viscacha (spelling?). It carries a lot, but it is inconvenient to access. Is there some consensus regarding best place to have one's bag? Do most people have the handlebar bag? it certainly seems convenient to have everything right there in front of you..

As for gearing, I'll change my current 52/36 w/ 11-28 cassette setup by switching out chainrings to 50/34. My Dura Ace rear derailleur prevents me from going any bigger than 28 sprocket on the back. I'll ride that for a while before deciding what gearing I need on my custom rando bike, and whether double or triple chainrings.
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Old 08-28-16, 08:13 PM
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Gearing was crucial for me when I spec'ed my current rando bike, an Elephant National Forest Explorer. To protect my knees I want to spin, not mash up mountains. I almost never stand on my pedals, except briefly to relieve pressure on my bottom.

Just like on my previous bike I wanted a low gear not much above 20", which is why I went with a touring triple (46/34/24) with a 12-30 cassette (10 speed). I mostly use the outer chain ring of course, but the inner more than the middle. Arguably I could make do with a double if it was compact enough, but it's easier and cheaper to find a triple with that much range than a double. The 46 lets me stay on the big ring much more than a 50 would and I never feel the need for a gear taller than the 46/12 (I don't race). If I had to choose a gear to give up, it would always be my tallest gear, not my lowest.

I might at some point upgrade to Di2 and then go for a 11-32 cassette combined with a compact plus crank such as 42/26 (road Di2 doesn't support triples and MTB Di2 is too expensive still).

I have SP dynamo hubs with B&M lights on both my bikes and am very happy with that combination. For USB charging (phone, GPS) I use a 10000 mAh power bank, which was plenty for two phones and a GPS on a 600. It's great never having to worry about running out of battery charge.

On the NFE I can run 42 mm tires with fenders, which makes for a very comfortable ride. I'm running mine tubeless. With wide tires I worry a lot less about getting snagged in ruts, metal grates, etc. especially when riding at night.

The NFE uses a low trail geometry fork optimized for front loads. There's a porteur front rack specifically designed for the NFE which is 30 cm wide and Swift Industries make a bag specifically for that rack (Ozette XL). That combination has worked very well for me. I like the easy accessibility of the bag while riding or while stopped without dismounting and the handling with a load is just right.

Before I put together this bike I rode my first bike for 30,000+ km to figure out what I needed, as well as trying every bike I had a chance to ride.
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