Flounce

Re-worked my original post for clarity, as my question about bike geometry has been answered:

My goal is 2019 PBP. I am a newb with longest ride only 150mi and riding 100-200mi weekly.

I'm currently fitted to a lightweight race geometry bike.

I am in the process of working with my bike fitter , as well as doing PT and strengthening, to address my achilles tendonitis and some knee pain. That process has been ongoing and the pain improving.

As my bike has recently been in the shop for a while, I've decided to get another bike:

1) partly because I'd like a second bike to have when one is in the shop;
2) partly because my Cannondale SS Evo Hi-Mod was kinda pricey and I'm not comfortable using it to run errands around town where I chain up the bike outside at the bike rack; and
3) partly because I'd like to get a bike that will better meet my needs for long distance riding, i.e. my current bike is pretty much limited to 23mm and some 25mm tires and I'd like to experiment a bit more upright geometry, and would probably keep my current bike with different geometry for shorter faster rides.

So my current plan is to choose an inexpensive off-the-rack endurance bike with more upright fit that will also meets my long distance needs better; and I don't want to spend too much money on it.

If I find that I like the fit on that bike and am riding longer brevets without the achilles and knee pain, then someday I build up a nicer bike if needed, based on the same geometry/fit.


Question 1: do you think my plan is reasonable?

Question 2: what frame geometry/attributes - in an off-the-rack bike - is important?

For example, I've read that longer chainstays are good. How long is long, I'm not sure.

What other geometry attributes are important?

Question 3: Can you recommend an inexpensive , off the shelf, bike that has features - geometry , tire width, can take a front rack etc - that would be better for long distance riding than my current bike?

thanks!

10 Wheels

How many miles have you put in the first year?

Your thinking is flawed.

Bikes are exercise machines.

Riding is 10% Bike... 90% Rider

Get to a Fitness Center and get in shape.

Flounce

About 5,000 miles in my first year. I'm a full-time physician and father of 4 little ones, so getting up at 4 or 5am to ride before work during the week is the best I can do at this point, but with some more consistency I hope to consistently ride over 200 miles/wk.

I agree with you about 90% being the rider, and I have been working on my training plan and additional strengthening exercises (core, glutes, VMO, achilles rehab), but my question here is about the 10% that is equipment.

Spoonrobot 

Sure this is true for "riding" but riding for 600k, 1200k and so forth is a different animal and equipment choice is often a majority contributor to success or failure.

With that in mind, for me it is more important that a frame take fenders and tires in the 35-42mm range than have a specific head/seat tube angle or something. I like "regular" geometry, you know headtube between 70-73.5, seatube between 70-74 and a top tube between 54-56.5cm. I'm a pretty solid stock Medium in most bikes and that works great for me. The range I can ride comfortably and I mean comfortably by riding up to 9 hours at a fast pace with minimal stops, is pretty big. In one year I went from a classic road race bike to a cx bike to a gravel bike, all with different geometry and had no issues after the initial 3-5 ride fitting period. I will say that longer chainstays are only ok up until about 43.5 cm, any longer and the bike starts to feel like a pig.

I'm not sure switching to a different bike and then another bike is going to help with your current ills. If you can't be fit properly on the Supersix Evo, you're not going to be happy on anything else either. At least on paper, there are always unexpected changes that happen between bike but almost always it's no difference.

You've been working with a fitter for a year and still have issues? How old are you? Do you have previous injuries?

10 Wheels

One needs about 10,000+ a year to be in Top Shape
My first year was 11,200 miles Felt it at 10,000 miles.
2nd year 16,000 miles.

Flounce

Thanks Spoonrobot for the info.

I understand what you're saying about switching bikes not helping.

I got achilles tendonitis after ramping up too quickly for my first century. After that, I'd get pain after 40-60 mile rides. Tweaking the fit (cleats posterior, seat lower, etc) I'm able to ride up to 120-130 miles without problems (depending on how hilly). But at around 140 to 150 miles, the achilles pain comes back.

My next step is to get the base plate extenders for my speedplays, which will move the cleat another 1.4cm posterior. If that doesn't help, then next is to drill holes for a mid-arch / mid-foot cleat position.

But those are not the main reason for my wanting to switch to a different bike now.

It's more that I decided to get myself a backup bike to ride when my other bike is being worked on (bike is currently in the shop for bottom bracket work, i haven't ridden in 4 days and it's killing me); and I want a less expensive bike to lock up when riding around town (my SS EVO was $4K+ and I'm not comfortable leaving it anywhere). So since I'm buying another bike anyway, I figure I might as well make some "progress" toward a frame geometry that will suit my long distance needs better than the supersix evo , rather than getting another race geometry bike (e.g. I could get a used CAAD10 with identical geometry to my SS Evo).

Having said that, it sounds like - from what you are saying - that there's no reason to switch from my SS Evo's geometry in terms of doing long brevets, i.e. once I sort out the achilles and patellofemoral issues. Is that correct? Thanks.

Flounce

10 Wheels - That's great that you are able to ride a lot. Maybe someday I'll meet your definition of being in Top Shape.

10 Wheels

Just do what you can and keep it fun.

Happy Safe Miles to You

Spoonrobot 

Ah ok that clarifies. I too know the pain that only comes after 8-10 hours in the saddle, makes it a beast to trouble-shoot and solve. Sounds like you are on the right track for that.

Yes I think that the SS Evo should be fine for long brevets. If you were complaining about a back/butt/neck issue I would probably explore other options with respect to tires and geometry but if it's just leg/foot issues I'd think the bike is ok. For most frames, you don't really get more compliance and a smoother ride from geometry changes, you get those from tire changes. Relaxed geometry is more for getting an upright position and reducing the tendency for unwanted steering inputs when the rider is tired or the road is rough.

So I guess with further info your plan it totally reasonable.

I think the Synapse is on the more aggressive side of "relaxed" but that's ok. Going from a race bike to a very relaxed bike in one shot is usually not appealing. I will also add that I've just installed a front rack on my bike and it is so much better than my previous saddlebag/pockets/camelbak for 6+ hour rides. I should have done it years ago. Right now I'm kinda kludged into a quick-release mounted rack due to having a carbon fork so it's not as a ideal but man is it nice. I would add - "able to take a front rack" as a priority item for future bike purchases.

You've probably already heard this but I'd recommend looking at bikes on REI online, picking some you like and then printing the geometry charts to bring to the store and doing some test rides. Take notes and figure out if the half-degree difference in headtube angle is important or if it just ends up as noise. It's really fun to run the gamut and go race bike->cross bike->endurance bike->touring bike and note the differences. If you do it at the right time the mechanics will usually have some interesting input as well.

Top Shape - I like that

Carbonfiberboy 

Back it off now. Cut back on the mileage. No centuries.

Create a long-range training plan for PBP. Work out in a gym twice a week. You don't need to do an SR series until '18. Work up to it. It takes 7 years to get really fit. Take a longer view.

Double-sided SPD and Sidi Dominator shoes. Rando = walkable.

Fix the pain. See a PT if necessary. No pain.

For the bike, tire size you want + fenders is probably the most important thing for PBP.

Look at carbon gravel grinders. Downside is fender mounting. Look at carbon touring bikes. Jamis Renegade might be just the thing: it apparently mounts fenders

unterhausen

I think most of the high performance gravel bikes can take fenders. Plenty can, anyway. I like that idea. I don't think there is anything special about randonneuring positions. You can always use another spacer or two under the stem, but no radical changes.

When I did PBP, I only rode a couple of 200k's and 400k out of 600k between June and the start of PBP. I spent the rest of the time getting faster. It would have worked a lot better if I had a reasonable plan for sleeping, but that's another subject.

I'm trying to work pretty hard on getting faster now. Lots of problems sort themselves out if you are on the bike for less time. That means a whole different level of fitness than I have been maintaining. The last couple of years have been bad for my training, and I'm trying to lose weight and catch up. There is definitely an advantage to having experience riding longer distance, but you don't want to put yourself out of the game just to get experience. If you did mostly 20 mile rides with an occasional 40 to 60 mile ride thrown in between now and your SR series to qualify for PBP, you could definitely be ready. But this is a gamble, and it pays to work out your problems ahead of time.

Carbonfiberboy 

This is also my experience, though my long fast rides were 60-80 miles. I rode them very hard, as hard as I could and finish while still moving well. I tried for an hour or so of zone 4 and some zone 5 in my weekly long fast rides. The rest were mostly zone 2. The idea being speed, getting fast. Speed is your friend. It buys you sleep.

Long rides are good too. Do an SR series this year if you feel strong and pain-free, on whatever bike.

Flounce

Spoonrobot - Thanks for the input, and the advice regarding "able to take a front rack" - will do that. I wish REI had more bike geometries that met my needs, but I guess that is too much to, they are awesome as is.

Carbonfiberboy - Really appreciate the specific advice, that is what I want to know, i.e. things like the Sidi Dominator shoes, double sided SPDs, tire size & fenders for PBP bike, and gravel grinder/Jamis renegade recc. I understand what you're saying about cutting down the miles and getting the achilles and knee stuff sorted out before ramping up the training.

Unterhausen - Appreciate the input regarding bike geometry, i.e. other than maybe a spacer under stem, nothing special about rando bike geometry. I understand what you're saying about focusing on getting faster on shorter distances, and less emphasis on riding a ton of long rides. I've read about someone who pretty much trained for RAAM just doing century-length (or shorter) rides, focusing on intensity. I get it, am thinking I'll just do one long ride (assuming no achilles/knee pain) every month or every other month, and remainder of training will be 50 miles or shorter, either intervals/hill repeats/time trial, or recovery.


Again - since I am buying another bike *anyway* for something less expensive that I can to ride around town and for when my SS EVO is being worked on - I figure I might as well look for another bike that might anticipate my future needs (tires wider than 23mm, can accept front rack and fenders, maybe a little more upright geometry).

If I leave the refundable world of REI, what do you think about these affordable options:

https://www.masibikes.com/bikes/adve...ondo-700c-2017

https://www.masibikes.com/bikes/adve...andonneur-2017

renegadeexpat

There aren't many options for "off-the-rack" road bikes that would take, say, full fenders+28mm tires or wider; allow installation of a front rack for bag; and come with lower gearing that I've read is nice to have on longer brevets. I'm not wild about the fact that these options come with disc brakes; and I'm lukewarm about the 650b wheel on the second one, but on the upside it comes with fenders installed... The Jamis bike has a carbon fork and I don't know if that affects front rack mounting; the Jamis also does not have as low gearing as the others, but it may be sufficient at 50/34 rings with 11-32 cassette.

Let me know what you think of these. The tire clearance for these bikes is wider than the Cannondale Synapse at REI.

bikemig 

There are so many bikes out there that can do what you want and very few people need a custom bike (although there is nothing wrong with getting what you want).

If the frame is the right size, then getting it to fit you (stem/seatpost/etc.) is no big deal but it does take some trial and error to dial this in.

You know the kind of riding you want to do and you have a rough idea of the kind of bike you want. I'd take a good long hard look at the offerings from Gunnar, Velo Orange, and Soma if looking for a steel frame.

All 3 of these companies have very good quality steel frames that can take a 28c (or bigger) tire and fenders and that have eyelets.

pdlamb

I understand the drive for N+1. I got my second bike when the first had been in the shop for a month (got it back two weeks later, BTW).


I don't really understand what you're looking for (maybe you don't, either?). Are you worried about neck pain, for instance, and want higher bars? Maybe it's time to try switching stems on what you've got to see how that rides.


If you want to try moving cleats back, why not try that now? Work with your fitter, obviously, to adjust saddle position after making that change.


Or are you fed up with a crotch massage on rough roads? If that's what's driving you, you probably do need a different bike to fit significantly bigger tires.


IMHO, you need to figure out what you want different before you go shopping, and to do that right, you need to figure out why you want something different.

Flounce

Bikmg and Pdlamb: thanks.

I realize that my original post - and my original thinking - was muddled; thanks for pointing that out.

I just edited my original post for clarity, see above.

I'm buying another bike because:
1) partly because I'd like a second bike to have when one is in the shop;
2) partly because my Cannondale SS Evo Hi-Mod was kinda pricey and I'm not comfortable using it to run errands around town where I chain up the bike outside at the bike rack; and
3) partly because I'd like to get a bike that will better meet my needs for long distance riding, i.e. my current bike is pretty much limited to 23mm and some 25mm tires and I'd like to experiment a bit more upright geometry, and would probably keep my current bike with different geometry for shorter faster rides.

Picking a frame and building it up with components is likely more money than I want to spend right now. Ideally, I'd like to get a complete bike off-the-rack.

Carbonfiberboy 

Well, then buy a used steel bike. I rode my first doubles on an 80's 12-speed which I bought for $150. It definitely didn't look like much which wouldn't stop someone who just needed a bike from grabbing it. It had plenty of room for tires and fenders and had eyelets. I put proper pedals, saddle, and saddle bag on it and it was ready to go.

thebulls

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "Top Shape" but my instinctive reaction to your post is: Utter bull****.

I've ridden PBP twice, will be finishing my 132nd consecutive R-12 ride on New Year's Day (God willing), have ridden a dozen SR series. I commute to work every day -- around 20 miles if I ride from home, a bit less if I drive part way.

The closest I've ever gotten to 10,000 miles is just a little over 9,000. Most years are closer to 7,000.

I am no Olympian. But I don't think the OP has olympic aspirations, he seems to just want to be a randonneur and finish PBP in 2019.

For training for PBP, I rode the standard SR series, continued to ride my monthly R-12 200's, did populaire's at maximum effort on the weekends, continued my daily commute, and rode hard interval sessions two or three days a week, depending on my recovery.

Nick

thebulls

I still don't understand quite what you're really looking for.

Like carbonfiberboy, I also think that early 80's bikes, particularly Treks, are a great value. If you want tires bigger than 25's with fenders, then you you probably want to get an '84 or earlier--by '85 it had already become fashionable to set them up with tighter racing geometry, at least with Treks.

But ... if you buy one of these and get it all set up for randonneuring, then I think you'll find yourself reluctant to ride it for errands and risk it getting stolen--too many expensive parts, and if you really like it, then you'd really hate for it to get stolen just before a brevet.

So maybe consider getting yourself a beater bike that is just good enough to ride for errands, that you don't mind much getting stolen. My local CL has a Trek 400 for $120 and another 400 for $195. Good price for either. It also has a Trek 600 for $749 which is an unrealistic price.

That still leaves the problem of what to get for your rando bike, or whether to just stick with what you have.

Nick

gl98115

Honestly, you can ride P-B-P on just about anything if you're reasonably fit and comfortable on the bike. I rode it back in the day on a Novara Randonee on 23mm tires (Michelin Hi-Lite Comps were my favs). A friend who finished 5 times rode an old steel bike of unknown origin. He was the type who bragged on how little he paid for gear, picking up replacement parts at the used bin of the LBS.

A light touring bike or endurance bike that will take fenders and a rack should work fine.

unterhausen

I was riding out of one of the PBP controles and a rider rode past me on an upright townie. She was interviewing another rider. I think it was Sophie Matter. Or else there was more than one rider on an upright townie. There are a number of bikes like that on PBP that most of us would consider somewhat inappropriate. But they work. If you look up Sophie Matter on google images, you'll see what I mean. The flowers were a nice touch. I actually tried to keep up for a while, no joy.

thebulls

I'm not disagreeing with you, since I think I would describe my PBP bike as a light touring bike that will take fenders and a rack. That said ...

Well, some people are strong enough that they can finish PBP on any old bike, for example Sophie Matter and the guy who rides antique bikes on PBP.

Most people ride what they think is their optimum possible bike, spending money on the bike commensurate with the thousands of dollars they spend to get to and ride PBP. And the majority of people finish in the final three hours. Maybe they could finish faster and they're just sandbagging, but I doubt it. So I'd have to guess if the majority of people had to ride on Sophie's bike or an antique Retro-Directe (or whatever) that they'd get timed-out and DNF'd.

My own bike -- a Gunnar Sport with a Waterford-built low-trail cantilever fork, converted to 650B -- fits the way that I ride pretty-well perfectly. It's set up with a low front rack, decaleur, and Gilles Berthoud 28 handlebar bag. With the low-trail fork, the handling is light and precise. On a long ride like PBP I carry a smaller Carradice saddlebag for a bit of extra luggage capacity. If I was buying from scratch I'd probably get a Boulder Allroad, but my bike has almost identical geometry, just a bottom bracket that's a tad too low.

I do think that by the time a person is going to PBP that they should have a bike that's tried and true for a 600km and ideally a 1000km and that they feel like does everything they want it to do.

Nick

bikemig 

I agree with Carbonfiberboy. If looking for a bike to run errands with and go long distances with and which won't cost you a lot of money, then get an older steel bike with eyelets and long reach brakes like one of these,

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...g-bicycle.html

You'll save a lot of money, learn how to work on bikes, and you can always sell it to recoup your investment once you figure out what really want.

Flounce

Thanks all.

I will look into getting a used older steel bike. Finding the right one that fits me would likely require more leg work than buying one with published geometry online where - if the 58cm doesn't fit me - than a 60cm would.

Logistically, it would be easier to buy two bikes: a real beater that I can lock up outside the store and is unlikely to be stolen; and another one that I'll use for longer brevets.


If I'm okay spending $1000-$1500 on a complete bike for longer brevets, what do you think about :

https://www.masibikes.com/bikes/steel/giramondo-2016

Velo Routier 650B Randonneur Bicycle | Cycles Toussaint

These are steel, take wider tires, have lower gearing, and for the velo routier, is low trail and comes with front rack for which they sell a front bag that fits.

Tourist in MSN

This article is 10 years old so it is quite dated, but the philosophy and discussion in the article is timeless. Don't focus on the materials discussed, focus on the discussion of why those materials were selected for use. Maybe read it now and again a month from now.
https://postrestant.co.uk/wp-content/...quipsurvey.pdf

Think about what bike you want to own three years from now and get that early. That might mean a bike with fenders and might mean buying a dynohub instead of planning on making such upgrades later.

If you get a dynohub, consider getting one that will work with disc brakes even if your current bike takes rim brakes. Some day you might want to put that wheel on a bike with disks so you might as well get a hub that can be moved from bike to bike.