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Wheelbuiders: I have a problem, need advice

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Wheelbuiders: I have a problem, need advice

Old 01-30-20, 10:47 AM
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Wheelbuiders: I have a problem, need advice

I have built a few before but am not any expert.
I've always followed the directions in Jobst Brandt's book and never had a hitch but stuck with cross-3 and 32 or 36 hole rims/hubs.
This time I'm using a 24 spoke (new and unfamiliar brand) Italian rim with new Taiwan rear cassette hub and lacing cross-2 for a rear wheel.

This rim has very subtle hole offsets (you really have to study the tire-side surface to see the offsets) but determined that it's the opposite drilling than any other rim I have used, (it's either called a Left-handed or Right-handed and I can't understand which is which) but the hole to the LEFT of the valve hole is offset DOWNward which is opposite to the illustrations that Brandt uses for all his lacing directions.

He mentions that when that's the case you start the build with the rear hub sprocket end UP and so the first set of spokes and the critical key-spoke is "Inbound" and from the drive side flange.
But after that there's no further news, all illustrations and directions are for a conventional "other-handed" rim.

I heard that Sheldon says when the rim is like mine you place the key-spoke in the next-closest hole, away from the valve hole, that has correct offset. So I did use that hole (SECOND hole to the LEFT of the valve hole) but otherwise following all the subsequent Brandt steps.

Results are the spokes which are nearest of the valve do not provide the widest gap for pump head access, like the directions show "the well-built, proper wheel" should look (and every other wheel I own or built before looks!)

So what have I done wrong?
How do I correct it?

TIA for your expert advice!
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Old 01-30-20, 11:30 AM
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.
...when you make the twist (rotation) of the hub so you can start lacing the spokes (after you have the first set in place), you have two choices for the direction of the twist. If you twist in the wrong direction, you get the results you have described, with the valve hole ending up in the middle of a set of four, rather than between the sets of four spokes. Try backing up to that stage, and twist in the other direction. See what happens.
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Old 01-30-20, 11:35 AM
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I'm not sure I understand the problem your having with Jobst's instructions. I've had a couple of rims offset like that, and I don't remember having a problem. What he says about flipping the hub isn't critical. If that's confusing you, ignore it. The key thing is to make sure the spokes from the "top" side of the hub go into the holes that are offset to that side. Get the key spoke placed properly, then fill alternate holes in the hub and every fourth hole in the rim. Repeat for the other side. When you do the third and fourth sets of spokes, let the crossing directions guide you.

I'm no master. I've built a couple dozen wheels. Sometimes I get it all laced and it didn't come out right, like you experienced. Then you just unlace it and try again. Valuable experience gained. Sometimes you don't understand what you did wrong but the second try works anyway.

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Old 01-30-20, 11:49 AM
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^^^^^^ "Y-you think that's a Schwinn??!?....."
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Old 01-30-20, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.
...when you make the twist (rotation) of the hub so you can start lacing the spokes (after you have the first set in place), you have two choices for the direction of the twist. If you twist in the wrong direction, you get the results you have described, with the valve hole ending up in the middle of a set of four, rather than between the sets of four spokes. Try backing up to that stage, and twist in the other direction. See what happens.
Thanks for this reply. Thing is I think the twist direction is critical so the the "pulling spokes" actually act as pulling, if I twisted opposite direction they would not be "pulling"...I think!
But as you and Andy K. bellow suggest, just unlace and try some alternates until it comes out right, so I will!
My uninformed gut tells me that maybe the correct lacing SHOULD have been to use the closest hole to the valve that was offset correctly even tho it would be the one to the RIGHT of the valve hole. Then do all subsequent steps in mirror image to what Brandt illustrated, including the twist direction...maybe yes, maybe not. One sure way to find out (well maybe actually will take 2 or 3 ways)

Thanks again, guys!
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Old 01-30-20, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1

Results are the spokes which are nearest of the valve do not provide the widest gap for pump head access, like the directions show "the well-built, proper wheel" should look (and every other wheel I own or built before looks!)

No, no. You don't want that, and it's easily avoidable.


Sorry I don't remember Jobst's terminology, so I will describe in standard bike mechanic terms how to do it.


Put in all your drive side pulling spokes into the hub first. For a 24h rim, there will be 6. I prefer pulling spokes "inside" (which means the heads are outside), but it doesn't make much difference.


Looking at the hub from the drive side, with the rim roughly in place and the valve hole at the top, put the spoke in the first hole to the right of the valve hole - on the correct side of the rim. If that spoke hole is not the one immediately to the right of the valve, no worries, put it in the next one, like Sheldon says. Put in the rest of the drive side pulling spokes and loosely thread on the nipples.


Next you install the NDS pulling spokes on the other side. Here is the trick. Locate the spoke hole in the hub on the NDS flange that is offset just to the left (counter-clockwise) of the head of the first spoke you installed. Put the first NDS pulling spoke through this hole. The threaded end goes in the first hole just right of the valve hole on the rim, the one you didn't use before. Continue with these other spokes.


So basically you just shift where you put in the NDS spokes counterclockwise by one space. Get it? Kind of hard to describe using words. Hopefully that is clear enough.


Anyhow from this point you twist the hub to get the tangent on the spokes, and lace in the rest of them in the usual way.
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Old 01-30-20, 01:12 PM
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Thanks again, I think the hole to left versus hole to right is the first mistake, that's not the hole Jobst shows being the one for key-spoke but his rim example is drilled opposite to mine. I think it's going to take trial (and error, more errors) to get it right but there's only just a few variations that are possible, one has to be the correct one.
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Old 01-30-20, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
Thanks for this reply. Thing is I think the twist direction is critical so the the "pulling spokes" actually act as pulling, if I twisted opposite direction they would not be "pulling"...I think!
But as you and Andy K. bellow suggest, just unlace and try some alternates until it comes out right, so I will!
...I know that there is a variety in opinion on whether the "pulling" spokes should lace inboard or outboard. And the Jobst method is designed to produce the "pulling" spokes going in a particular direction with regard to how they run through the flanges. I can't recall which way (matched inboard or matched outboard). I honestly don't think it makes much difference in the majority of built wheels. There might be a couple of specialty wheels where it matters.

IME, the main reason that inserting the outboard entering to inboard exiting sets of spokes first is advisable is that it makes inserting and crossing the last two sets easier.


I think I have that right. Anyway, I know what I mean.
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Old 01-30-20, 05:11 PM
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Sheldon has a page on whether or not the trailing spokes should be heads in or heads out. I'm sure Jobst has his own opinions. Getting the hub/rim alignment right is about focusing on clusters of 4 spokes, 1 leading DS, 1 trailing DS, 1 leading NDS, 1 trailing NDS.

With the valve hole at 12 o'clock, we're focused on the 2 holes to each side. Jobst says sprocket side down, I lace driveside up, the way it's shown in Sheldon's guide, simply because all things being equal I think of a bike looking from the drive side. You can debate if trailing or leading spokes should be heads in or heads out, it's not too important. I build the same was Sheldon does. No matter, the first key spoke needs to be a heads out spoke that is one of the two holes directly adjacent to the the valve hole. For me, this is a trailing spoke just clockwise of the valve hole. If it's offset to the NDS, the key spoke is on the NDS side, heads out. If it's offset to the DS, the key spoke is on the DS, heads out.

(Empty) (Empty) (Valve hole) (Key spoke heads out) (Empty)

Next, on the same side as the key spoke, I lace a single heads in spoke with 6 empty hub holes between it and the key spoke for 3 cross, 4 empty hub holes for 2 cross. This spoke goes on the opposite side of the valve hole into the 2nd spoke hole, leaving one empty spoke hole between the key spoke and this spoke. These spokes will be roughly parallel and do not cross. Next, I sight the hub through the valve hole, and try to line up the hub, held perpendicular to the rim, with the rim joint, and make sure the graphics are centered, because this is very important and will make the wheel go twice as fast. At this point you can lace all the heads out spokes on the side of the key spoke.

(Key spoke side heads in) (Empty) (Valve hole) (Key spoke heads out) (Empty)

Next comes the heads out spoke on the opposite side of the key spoke. The spoke goes in the hole that is half a step from the key spoke in the direction away from the the vavle hole, and goes in the spoke hole next to the key spoke, on the side of the key spoke without the valve hole. To me, that's one hole clockwise to the key spoke on the hub (opposite flange) and the rim. This leaves the hole next to the valve hole empty such that the cluster of 4 spokes goes:

(Key spoke side heads in) (Empty) (Valve hole) (Key spoke heads out) (Non-key-spoke side heads out)

At this point if you know how to lace a wheel, everything should be in proper alignment. Fill in the heads out spokes, then fill in the heads in spokes. Looking at our cluster of 4 spokes centered around the valve hole, none of them should cross with each other.

Last edited by Kuromori; 01-31-20 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 01-30-20, 09:50 PM
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Starting out like you did with the first set of spokes, when you lace the second set you are essentially making the first spoke in your second set the key spoke. Use the flange hole offset one closer to the valve hole rather than the one offset away.

or

you can just start your build on the flange on the far side, rather than the near flange. Both accomplish the same thing.
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Old 01-31-20, 12:08 AM
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The "Jobst method" is to have a rear wheel with "pulling spokes inboard" that is with the heads on outside of flange, and these spokes "mirror image" from DS to NDS flanges...it always worked perfectly when I followed his steps using a conventionally drilled rim. Unfortunately for us who don't grasp the theory behind his steps when there's any deviations Jobst just glosses over how you are supposed to compensate. Sheldon's diagrams with multi-colored spokes just don't "read" well to me, the color-code is confusing not clarifying. But I will keep trying and am sure I'll have a "lightbulb" moment where it all makes sense and I'll think: "why didn't somebody just SAY so! Jeesh!" Thanks again for everybody who's trying to help!
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Old 01-31-20, 01:50 AM
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...let me try to explain what I do in a different set of words. It's derived from Brandt's method, but is easier for me to visualize.

First you insert one of the the spokes going from the outboard to inboard direction... doesn't matter where on the hub unless you want the hub label to line up with the stem hole. You have to be careful to insert that spoke into either of the two spoke nipple holes closest to the stem hole. And it needs to go in whichever of the two is angled in the right direction for that spoke and its flange. Then flip the hub and rim over, and insert the appropriate spoke into the other flange (again outboard to inboard) to pick up the other of the two nipple holes closest to the stem hole. this might either be the flange hole immediately following, or the one immediately preceeding the one you just used on the other flange, depending on which hole is still empty of the tow next to the valve hole.

Those are going to be your two trailing spokes for that group of four. In order for them to be the trailing spokes, you need to twist the hub in a direction so they angle away from the stem hole. Just do that with the two spokes only in there, and see what happens. Then pop in the rest of both groups and spin the nipples on, counting four holes for each as spacing. (Skip three, insert into the fourth.)

You now need to do the hub twist, so you can start lacing the crossing spokes. Drop in one spoke on one or the other flange from inboard to outboard. Twist the hub in the same direction you did initially, with just the two spokes you used to visualize that they would be the trailing spokes in a group of four. Count the number of crosses for your calculated wheel build, and as you're crossing, run that spoke (for a three cross as an example) over two and inside the last spoke. It needs to go in whichever hole at the destination that is angled in the proper direction for that flange.

Once that's right, just drop in and lace the rest of that set, then flip the hub and rim over and do the final set. The twist so that those first two spokes closest to the valve hole pull and angle away from the valve hole is what makes them the trailing spokes in a group of four, and it insures that your valve hole will be positioned between two groups of four,

This is all easier to see with a hub, spokes, and rim in hand.


In this case, the compensation gets accomplished because as long as you get those initial two spokes in the holes closest to the valve hole, going to the proper flange for the angle the holes are drilled, making the twist automagically makes them the trailing (pulling) spokes for that group, and the others follow along for the ride.
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Old 01-31-20, 11:01 AM
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I think this begins to make sense @3alarmer and THANKS! but until I have the wheel in hand (tonight I hope) I'm using imagination. But it appears that the hole-right or hole-left to valve hole is a variable depending on the rim drilling and offset, then the second spoke AFTER the key-spoke just has to be co-ordinated so it's the correct one in relation to the key-spoke: moving one-half-step either clockwise or counter-clockwise then inserted in the rim in same direction to the next hole beside the key-spoke but NOT the one on the opposite side of the valve hole. And that the twist is in whichever direction will orient those inboard spokes AWAY from the valve hole...at least that's what I gather now, we'll see what I got right and what I got wrong.
Sidebar: interesting that after this initial failure I did a survey of ALL my rear wheels and noticed that fewer than half are laced "mirror-image" more are the symmetrical style (comparing the RH to LH flanges) so Brandt's preferences are not universal in the wheel builder world.
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Old 01-31-20, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
Sidebar: interesting that after this initial failure I did a survey of ALL my rear wheels and noticed that fewer than half are laced "mirror-image" more are the symmetrical style (comparing the RH to LH flanges) so Brandt's preferences are not universal in the wheel builder world.
FYI. Asymmetrical lacing is typical of production bikes because it is or was the only way it could be done by machine until fairly recently. Symmetrical ("mirror-image") lacing pattern was for a long time the hallmark of a hand built wheel. That being so, many people preferred to build asymmetrical even by hand, and that was the official method of Schwinn. It was generally seen as slightly archaic by the time I learned how to build wheels.
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Old 01-31-20, 03:58 PM
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I'm not really sure about the machine thing. I haven't thought too hard about it, but many factory videos show wheels being laced partially by hand. It may have more to do about work flow and just spinning the wheel in the same direction on both sides. If both sides are done the same, there's fewer chances for mistakes and the process is faster for a semi-automated assembly line.
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Old 01-31-20, 05:03 PM
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Look at a "normal" wheel in the mirror.
Answer Should surface that way.
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Old 02-01-20, 11:34 PM
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Flipping the rim won't help and changing the hub twist reverses the leading / trailing (pushing / pulling) spokes and can cause more of a problem if the chain jumps the inner freewheel cog. I would just offset 1 hole as per Sheldon Brown's guide . If you offset in the "correct" direction, you will have nearly the same amount of space for using a pump.

Look at any wheel and you will see that in one hole off from the valve it's a smaller space, but in the other direction you have the almost same space.

With the wide spacing of a 24H rim, you should have plenty of space.
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Old 02-02-20, 10:58 AM
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It isn't acceptable to get this almost right. Take the time until you figure it out. It doesn't matter which side the spoke hole immediately to the right of the valve is drilled on. The wheel can be built correctly either way.

This isn't just about space for the valve. You also need the crossing spokes keeping the joint in the rim pulled tight in the opposite side.

In this case, the 'key' spoke will go in on the second rim hole past the valve. Instead, the first 'key' spoke on the other (non drive) side will go in the first hole, BUT, the hub hole it starts from is one over to the left.
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Old 02-02-20, 02:06 PM
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UPDATE on this wheel anyway: I took off all nipples and started with the keyspoke in the closest hole to RIGHT of the valve hole (cause that hole was the correct offset), had to re-insert all the inboard spokes on the NDS flange since they were not in the correct holes anymore, then twisted the hub opposite what the Brandt book illustration showed (because of the rim's drilling) but doing it so all the 2 sets of inboard spokes are "pulling". Then all other steps were routine and now have a perfectly fine wheel, ready for truing.
My take-away: use either hole that is next to the valve hole that has the correct offset; DON'T skip to using the next hole away from valve just to keep the key-spoke on the LH side of the valve, that's where I went wrong.
Thanks again for all the advice!
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Old 02-02-20, 04:13 PM
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Good job.
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Old 02-02-20, 07:59 PM
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Congrats on getting it laced up. However you get there, if the spokes end up in the right place, you did it right.
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Old 02-02-20, 08:39 PM
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Now I'm confused... At least you got it laced up right.
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Old 02-03-20, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
Looking at the hub from the drive side, with the rim roughly in place and the valve hole at the top, put the spoke in the first hole to the right of the valve hole - on the correct side of the rim. If that spoke hole is not the one immediately to the right of the valve, no worries, put it in the next one, like Sheldon says. Put in the rest of the drive side pulling spokes and loosely thread on the nipples.

Next you install the NDS pulling spokes on the other side. Here is the trick. Locate the spoke hole in the hub on the NDS flange that is offset just to the left (counter-clockwise) of the head of the first spoke you installed. Put the first NDS pulling spoke through this hole. The threaded end goes in the first hole just right of the valve hole on the rim, the one you didn't use before. Continue with these other spokes.
I've been following Sheldon's wheelbuilding page for most of my wheels, but when I've built a rim where the first offset spoke hole is the second hole in the row, it always comes out wrong. Three of the last rims I've come across have been like this, so it is beginning to be a sticking point with me.

However, your second paragraph is interesting. Sheldon's wheelbuilding page says to begin installing the inboard NDS spokes one hole clockwise of the key spoke, not counter-clockwise. I haven't tried it like this, but I definitely will the next time I build a wheel - just to see what happens...

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Old 02-03-20, 04:50 PM
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"Sheldon's wheelbuilding page says to begin installing the inboard NDS spokes one hole clockwise of the key spoke, not counter-clockwise. I haven't tried it like this, but I definitely will the next time I build a wheel - just to see what happens..."
Yeah I am not sure what that will do cause Sheldon's method is not exactly Jobst's and since Jobst starts you with the drive side flange and shows the "correct" key-spoke hole as the one to the LEFT, all I can say for certain is skipping to the one-away-from-that to the LEFT is a mistake. Whereas using the correct offset hole directly to the RIGHT of valve hole was perfectly good.
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Old 02-03-20, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
However, your second paragraph is interesting. Sheldon's wheelbuilding page says to begin installing the inboard NDS spokes one hole clockwise of the key spoke, not counter-clockwise. I haven't tried it like this, but I definitely will the next time I build a wheel - just to see what happens...
You would only do it this way if the second spoke clockwise from the valve is one the drive side of the rim, and you use that as your key spoke.

In this situation, you could also instead put in the NDS pulling spokes first, then install the drive side pulling spokes one hole clockwise from them. Same difference in the end.
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