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Which spokes for touring?

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Which spokes for touring?

Old 02-09-19, 05:51 PM
  #26  
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Phil Wood makes fine spokes but I prefer Sapim Strong's with their brass locking nipples on my touring bike. I have them laced up to Paul Components hubs and WTB rims. If I had to redo my wheels again I would probably switch to White Industries hubs and HED Belgium Plus rims but my wheels are excellent and I have had zero problems with them once properly built by a master. The only reason for the switch at least hub wise is because i9 no longer makes the freehub bodies so while Mister Paul has all the parts to make these again i9 who made the freehubs has stopped making the compatible freehubs for him. I would only be switching the rims because I really love the look of HEDs.
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Old 02-09-19, 05:54 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb View Post
That's probably true. I've looked at Rhyno Lite's and Velocity NoBS, but I think they're ugly. I have not come around (aesthetically) to any modern rims I've seen yet. For one thing I like a 32 mm wide rim and a shiny high polish. Like most I want function and beauty. If I get quick rim failure, I'll look at others, so I'm open to suggestions.
well, folks your weight were riding back then also, so there must be a workable solution. Good spokes and a good wheelbuilder should suffice.
I toured on 1990 era rims, 700 stuff, and it worked, but then I was probably 125lbs back then

I second the recommendation , or maybe you said you wanted this, but wider tires will help putting less impact shock into your wheelset, just due to the lower pressures and greater air volume. I experience this with my 26in wheels with 32 spokes, modern disc rims though, but I am sure the larger volume tires helps a lot in making life easier for the spokes.

but in the end, function will be the most important thing, so you will see....
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Old 02-09-19, 06:15 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb View Post
Here's a link to the spokes: Phil Wood & Co.
Thanks, I was unaware of them.

I previously said:
You mentioned Phil hubs. A friend of mine tours on an older freewheel type Phil hub and he is quite happy with it. That design also overcomes the weak axle problem, thus that would also be a good choice.

You interpreted that as me saying that Phil made freewheels, but I was talking about the type of hub that a freewheel could be threaded onto.

The rims that I am using on my two 26 inch wheel touring bikes are no longer made, thus I am not recommending any rims. But if your old rims have much wear on the brake track then I think new rims is worth it.
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Old 02-09-19, 08:44 PM
  #29  
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aw hell, I'm just going to go out and say this, the real answer to this guys question, as none of you jackasses have yet---

different spokes for different folks.
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Old 02-12-19, 12:57 AM
  #30  
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On the Wheelsmith website I only see DB14, not DH13 What's the difference?
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Old 02-12-19, 04:06 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Lots of them .. My 700c touring wheels, had 40 front , 48 rear*, so, 88 total , 90 if you bring a couple spares ...

* hub, old, Phil Wood, Freewheel,,, 10 years, several multi-month self supported tours 'Across the Pond'..
Are you saying that you have a freewheel like a 5- or 6-speed on a Phil Wood hub? If so, which model of hub?
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Old 02-12-19, 09:13 AM
  #32  
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I recently built new wheels using Sapim Race DB spokes (2mm/ 1.8mm/ 2mm) that I purchased from Thor USA for $.55/ spoke which I considered extremely cheap. Sapim Spokes and Nipples The rim are DT Swiss TK540, the front hub is a SON 28 dynamo hub and the rear is Shimano Deore LX cup and cone hub. Both are 36 holes. I think these are extremely strong wheels.
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Old 02-13-19, 09:26 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb View Post
On the Wheelsmith website I only see DB14, not DH13 What's the difference?
Here's a link to the DH13. DH13's have a 2.3mm head/bend with a 2.0mm shaft. A DB14 has a 2.0mm head, 1.7mm middle, and a 2.0mm end. The "DB" means double butted which means it has a narrower midsection. DT Alpine III differ from the DH13 in that they have a butted middle section as well. The dimensions on the Alpine III is 2.3/1.8/2.0mm. That thinner midsection provides a bit more elasticity in the spoke. Sheldon Brown discusses the benefits of the thinner midsection here.

Double-butted spokes are thicker at the ends than in the middle. The most popular diameters are 2.0/1.8/2.0 mm (also known as 14/15 gauge) and 1.8/1.6/1.8 (15/16 gauge).Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic, allowing them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.

As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily-stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke holes.
He also has this to say about the thicker head on spokes

Since spokes use rolled, not cut threads, the outside diameter of the threads is larger than the base diameter of the spoke wire. Since the holes in the hub flanges must be large enough for the threads to fit through, the holes, in turn, are larger than the wire requires. This is undesirable, because a tight match between the spoke diameter at the elbow and the diameter of the flange hole is crucial to resisting fatigue-related breakage.
I noticed that when I first started building with triple butted spokes almost 20 years ago. The spoke is tighter in the hub so there is less movement of the head as the spoke travels around the wheel. When the spoke hits the bottom of the wheel, the rim deforms and deflect upward (slightly). There is a momentary relaxing of tension on the spoke and, since the other spokes are pulling on it, it moves upward, then downward, then upward, ad infinitum. This puts stress on the head and if the head can move, it puts more stress on the head. The more weight on the bike, the more the rim deforms and the more stress is put on the head. Frankly, all spokes should 2.3mm heads.

If you really want to get deep into the weeds, here's an article that explains why triple butted spokes are a good thing. Ric has a whole bunch of other articles on wheel building that are worth reading as well. I still use and teach his building method from 1986 Bicycling Magazine (back when it was useful). He, by the way, was the founder of Wheelsmith.
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Old 02-13-19, 10:16 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
[snip...] Sheldon Brown discusses the benefits of the thinner midsection here. [...snip]
Yes. Interesting observation. Jan Heine has an interesting post on the topic. As you suggested, the core of the argument is that flexible (up to a point) wheels are stronger. And that would extend to the number of spokes (he writes that while 36 spokes was the norm, he's now riding on 28 spokes front, 32 rear). He also mentions the fact that wider tires contribute to wheel strength.

Not entirely clear to me if flexible (i.e. double butted aluminium spokes + wide tire at lower pressure) will make a more durable wheel (a) over time, on relatively smooth surfaces, because elasticity reduces the stress of a revolution, which is repeated a very large number of times; or (b) handles hard landing or rough roads better because the impact is absorbed rather than "fought" by the structure. (not unlike a glass disk that will shatter when dropped on the ground, vs a rubber disk that will not be damaged at all).
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Old 02-14-19, 05:31 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb View Post
Good idea about seat post storage. I've broken a few spokes which were 1980s 2.0 steel just from daily commuting, so I wanted to go crazy with strength for touring. You nailed it: 26", 36h, and 2.10" tires. I love the ride. I plan on touring on paved roads and occasionally dirt or gravel, but nothing like actual mountain biking.

So what is the benefit of the Phil Wood spokes if any?
Iím going to go out on a limb and wonder if your experience with breaking spokes was a production wheel that never got trued up and checked from day one. 36 spokes in a 26Ē big basic rim with straight 14g spokes is pretty bombproof. Havenít looked at all your posts but building up a freewheel hub with fancy spokes is not getting you crazy with strength.

Butted spokes will have greater longevity but are kind of beside the point if spoke breakage came from abuse, improper build, lack of maintenance, sticks, impacts on individual spokes and overshifting.





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Old 02-14-19, 12:42 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb View Post
Are you saying that you have a freewheel like a 5- or 6-speed on a Phil Wood hub? If so, which model of hub?
I bought the hubshell , aluminum flanges on a steel tube , threaded on 1 end* @ a bike shop in Sausalito Cal 'garage sale'..

mailed it to the company in San Jose Cal, and they pressed in the axle and bearing assembly, and mailed it back.. this was in the mid 80's...

* So this was from their original models , could have been from a front hub, as they had a disc brake , threaded on left side of both wheels .
( if a tandem rear it would have been threaded on both ends)
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Old 02-14-19, 04:59 PM
  #37  
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I bought a used rear wheel yesterday. Has 32 DT 2.0mm straight gauge spokes. I do not plan to tour on it, but I am sure that it is more than adequate for riding unladen. Re-greased the hub today, looks great. Rim has a slight wobble, but it should true up easy enough. Disc, so no rim wear.

Originally Posted by gauvins View Post
... (he writes that while 36 spokes was the norm, he's now riding on 28 spokes front, 32 rear).
....
Decades ago some of the British utility bikes had more spokes in the rear than front. When I built up my Backroad almost two years ago, I used 36 rear and 32 front. I initially planned on 36 front, but the SP hub I was shopping for was hard to find in 36, so I decided that the front wheel on a touring bike has less stress on it so I went with 32. But for a touring bike that is carrying a load, I want 36 in the rear.

Originally Posted by gauvins View Post
... He also mentions the fact that wider tires contribute to wheel strength.
....
That one I do not get. I can see a wider rim being stronger, but the width of the tire making the wheel stronger? I can see more cushioning from a wider tire, thus less strength is needed.
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Old 02-14-19, 05:34 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb View Post
I'm 230 lb and touring about 600 mi on a 1980s hardtail MTB. I've got NOS rims and NOS hubs from the era. Which spokes should I choose? I'll be camping, not staying in hotels, so I'll be loaded with camping and cooking gear. I do not have the weight of all of the gear yet.

I was considering Sapim Strong. But I always hear how great Phil Wood's hubs are, so are his spokes exceptional as well?
Triple butted DT Swiss Alpine III spokes.

DT Swiss tandem hubs. More reliable than Phils.
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Old 02-15-19, 03:48 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I can see more cushioning from a wider tire, thus less strength is needed.
I'm fairly certain that that's what he's referring to. A more effective suspension between riding surface and rim should result in smaller peak forces on the wheel.
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Old 02-15-19, 07:55 AM
  #40  
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Yes. Taken from Heine

We can use fewer spokes, because the wider tires we ride today transmit far fewer shocks to the rim. Imagine hitting the bump above with a 23 mm tire: Even if you donít bottom out, your tire is so hard that much of the impact will be transmitted to the rim
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Old 02-15-19, 08:03 AM
  #41  
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and which my pre trip instincts and trip experiences on my Latin American trips on this subject bore out.
Using 2in tires on my 32 spoked 26 inch wheels worked well, and I am sure it was because of the cushion effect of the larger tires that made things easier on the wheelset when going over rough roads and the few times hitting potholes in a bad way.
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Old 02-15-19, 08:33 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by gauvins View Post
Yes. Taken from Heine
Got it, it said:
We can use fewer spokes, because the wider tires we ride today transmit far fewer shocks to the rim. Imagine hitting the bump above with a 23 mm tire: Even if you don’t bottom out, your tire is so hard that much of the impact will be transmitted to the rim


Thus it did not add strength, it just meant less strength was needed.

All my touring has been on a range of widths from 37 and 40mm for pavement and 50 or 57mm for mixed pavement and gravel. And around town near home with an unladen bike I often use 28 or 32mm. But my errand bike for grocery getting is 50mm for better cushioning of the groceries on the ride home.

And that is why I usually only put about 75 to 80 percent as much air pressure in my front tires as rear, with less weight on the front it provides better cushioning. And with less weight on the front tire, the lower pressure does not cause that much additional rolling resistance at those lower pressures so there is minimal downside from the lower pressure in the front.

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Old 02-16-19, 05:02 PM
  #43  
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For the front I'm going to look at DT Swiss Alpine III first, and also Wheelsmith DH13 second and Sapim Strong third. I'll order one of each first to see what they look like in person.

If I order blanks (unthreaded spokes) for my LBS how many extra should I provide them to build the wheel? Also, should I get the blanks as long as possible?

For the rear even though I have a NOS hub I love I may "upgrade" it before making the spoke decision.
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Old 02-16-19, 06:10 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb View Post
...
If I order blanks (unthreaded spokes) for my LBS how many extra should I provide them to build the wheel?

Also, should I get the blanks as long as possible?
....
I assume you have already confirmed that your local bike shop can thread the spokes, most bike shops do not have a spoke threading machine.

And from your question, I assume you have already confirmed that they are willing to work on parts you provide. Some shops insist that they provide all of the parts and that they charge for those parts at the prices that they want to charge.

It they do it right, every spoke they thread will be a usable spoke. I do not recall, are they doing two wheels or one? I would suggest four extra spares for the rear (two drive side, two non-drive side). I am assuming the drive side and non-drive side are different lengths. The last rear wheel I built up, by using a nipple washer on each drive side nipple, I could get by with the same spoke length on both drive side and non-drive side, but it does not always work that way.

If also the front, two more if they are the same length, usually they are same length but maybe not if disc.

If they are too long and they cut them to size, if they were double butted blanks then the thicker part where they have to put the threads might not be long enough to thread them properly.

Is there a reason you are asking that question here instead of asking the bike shop that would be doing the work?
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Old 02-16-19, 06:24 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
Is there a reason you are asking that question here instead of asking the bike shop that would be doing the work?
No reason other than I thought I might get a more thorough answer. I'll check in with them instead.

Thanks.
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