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DIY Bike Fitting for Track

Old 04-10-18, 09:34 AM
  #51  
carleton
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Yes, Missy did it. I don't know what alphamantis is, so I'm guessing no.




It was similar. I had set it so my knee was in the same relative place to the pedal axle as on my road bike with similar leg extension. (I say similar because I had done most of it on the trainer while looking at a mirror to take my measurements.)

The new saddle position on the track bike is lower and farther back that the road bike.
Further back engages more glutes as it closes the hips. I think it's a "big gear" thing as it's good for mashing. More forward enables higher cadences and opens hips.

A long, flat saddle like the Fizik Arione is popular because it allows one to sit back for power or slide up for spin.
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Old 05-19-18, 01:57 PM
  #52  
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Thoughts on the position (I'm the one on the bottom)? It's not perfectly side-on, obviously. We're just rolling out for our sprint, so I'm not low into my more aero position yet. Stem is slammed with +7deg (because my -27deg has me more cramped). I have a long-ass torso (on a 61cm frame as it is, at 6'0").

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Old 05-19-18, 05:48 PM
  #53  
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Tough to say but if you need to stretch out more, maybe 1cm forward will do it. You could gain a little more by rotating your hips forward, but it's probably unnecessary. Your opponent could use a fit session tho. They look about as comfortable as a small dog trying to pass a peach pit.
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Old 05-21-18, 08:04 AM
  #54  
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I think sf looks stretched enough, but true that some sprinters, especially tall ones, get VERY long. so yeah, sf, i could see you a little longer + higher to go for a similar torso position but some elbow bend, but that kind of depends on a lot of personal body stuff plus fit philosophy. without like a full profile rollers shot to give complete info, i'm not seeing any warning signs - nice knee/elbow gap, upper arm isn't vertical, torso is horizontal, long muscular fit that's appropriate for a sprinter of the level you're tryna reach.

is this the same setup as the picture you posted here of carleton pushing you? because it looks different, and you look a lot longer and lower in this pic - and your position looks a lot better here.
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Old 05-21-18, 10:03 AM
  #55  
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I think it's exactly the same. I was probably sitting up higher in the other photo because I was being pushed, whereas we started from the rail in this pic.
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Old 05-21-18, 05:51 PM
  #56  
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I think the position looks ok. If anything I would be looking to modify to get some elbow bend in to reduce the forearm profile and maybe get lower.

BUT I've been paying attention to fit long enough now to say that it doesn't seem to matter too much. There's people around that are in positions that most would gasp in horror at, but they're going damn fast. The body adapts fairly well. The most critical part to a position I now believe is getting aero, but getting aero such that you can maintain the position. I've seen guys change and work on their position, dialling things down, but at the end of a race or in a F200 when your mind is elsewhere you see the position thrown out the window. Get aero, get comfortable (enough) and get the body putting out the power.
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Old 06-07-18, 08:43 AM
  #57  
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The 'after' from my bike fit yesterday. We pushed me 2cm back and 2cm down, and got me way more aero.

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Old 06-07-18, 01:28 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
The 'after' from my bike fit yesterday. We pushed me 2cm back and 2cm down, and got me way more aero.
Looks good.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing by asking, what were your fitter's thoughts for moving you back 2cm?

Can you comfortably carry the RPMs you want with the new position?

The reason I ask is because, going back is usually a more powerful position that becomes so at the expense of higher cadences, aerodynamics, and knee clearance.
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Old 06-07-18, 04:43 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Looks good.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing by asking, what were your fitter's thoughts for moving you back 2cm?

Can you comfortably carry the RPMs you want with the new position?

The reason I ask is because, going back is usually a more powerful position that becomes so at the expense of higher cadences, aerodynamics, and knee clearance.
Going off my own fitting experience and the dialogue I had with my fitter, The rearward saddle works for the power, and you will naturally slide forward on the saddle for higher RPM. He demonstrated this with me as I increased the RPM and watched my body changing the angles (Retul fit so real time monitoring of data). So you can always slide forward for RPM but you won't hang your backside over the rear of a saddle that is set forward.
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Old 06-07-18, 04:53 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
Going off my own fitting experience and the dialogue I had with my fitter, The rearward saddle works for the power, and you will naturally slide forward on the saddle for higher RPM. He demonstrated this with me as I increased the RPM and watched my body changing the angles (Retul fit so real time monitoring of data). So you can always slide forward for RPM but you won't hang your backside over the rear of a saddle that is set forward.
For anyone considering fit changes, this is very true for track. If one is coming from a road background, typically the saddle is chosen for individual fit and comfort over the long haul, because this is a necessity for longer road races. For track, the saddle is a little bit more viewed as a tool to perch on as the races are shorter. This gives one a lot more leeway in choosing a saddle to accommodate multiple or changing positions. Granted, us trackies still need good support on account of the G forces that can certainly add up over the course of a 20km points race or a 40km Madison. Still, if your races are shorter, you should think of a saddle that supports you well in the rearward "diesel" position, but is long enough to allow you to slide forward and perch on the nose when the RPMs go up. Typically this will mean a saddle that can end up different from one's road saddle. If multiple saddles/seatposts are being used (mass start vs TT), then you can go with a shorter saddle that still has the same sit bone support in the rear for TTs, but will allow you to slide it up further forward and still stay legal when it comes to bike checks. The thing to remember is not to try and replicate your equipment for different set-ups, but to accomodate your contact points while remaining legal in within the confines of the comissaire's jig.
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Old 06-07-18, 06:39 PM
  #61  
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Thanks brawlo and taras.

I've loved the Arione saddle for track because it has a flat top and allows one to slide back and forth as needed.
https://www.wigglestatic.com/images/...ne-11-zoom.jpg


There are some really comfy saddles that lock one in a single position:



That hump in the front is great for use as an anchor when grinding as one pedals, but it also prevents you from moving forward to spin.
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Old 06-07-18, 07:08 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
There are some really comfy saddles that lock one in a single position:



That hump in the front is great for use as an anchor when grinding as one pedals, but it also prevents you from moving forward to spin.
So true! I had a SMP Dynamic on my road bike and loved it. I picked up a Composit cheap and tried that on my track bike and it was true murder. I switched the Composit to my road bike for more years of joy, but I made the transition to the ISM Adamo saddles for my track bike and have never looked back. I had a big year on road a few years back and found myself wanting to shift around on the road saddle as I was pushing hard quite often in races. I ended up ditching the SMP on it too and went to an ISM Breakaway
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Old 06-08-18, 03:46 AM
  #63  
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Knee angle, hip angle, back angle...everything got better, and I got much more aero by doing that. That was her thinking.
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Old 06-08-18, 06:58 AM
  #64  
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I tried the ISM Adamo a few years ago. Hated it. It was way too wide at the front. I've wanted to try the SMP, but they are not easy to find and expensive. Mostly, I just use Ariones, on all my bikes.
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Old 06-08-18, 08:25 AM
  #65  
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Looks good to me. DId Missy do the fit?
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Old 06-09-18, 07:28 AM
  #66  
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Yep
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Old 06-09-18, 10:01 AM
  #67  
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That's Missy's fit philosophy in a nutshell - further back, bent elbows, long reach. I've seen a lot of people come out of her studio with that fit and it seems to work really well.
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Old 11-30-18, 09:31 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Here's what I've done in the past:

Get a stable, repeatable bike position setup:
Get a bike trainer that locks the rear wheel. This is a basic setup.
Use Rollers for a more advanced setup only when you want to measure pedaling mechanics and not just angles.

Use a camera:
Either find a good adjustable stand for your mobile phone, use a digital camera, or a GoPro. There are plenty of stand/brace options. You don't need a tripod. Maybe a barstool is enough. You need it to be at a repeatable height, maybe top tube height so as not to distort angles.

Keep the same zoom on the device. Changing zooms will change angles slightly.

Mount up:
Setup the bike such that you and the bike are in the center of the frame. Make sure that you are square to the camera and not angled off. You have to figure out a way to set repeatable cues like (tires on the bottom edge of the frame, top tube on the center line, x meters distance back from the bike...)

Record:
Record yourself pedaling at various cadences (even very slow). This is important. The slow speed is so that you can freeze frame and check your leg angles for comparison.

Check your race tuck.

Add resistance:
Add various levels of resistance and see if your posture changes adversely.

If you can, add enough resistance to simulate a standing start (if that's part of your event).


Download and Review.
Take screenshots of yourself and legs in various positions.
Look for "angle measurement software" for your computer and learn to measure your hip, leg, back and arm angles.

Compare
Now compare all of those to athletes who race the events you prefer and share a similar body type.
Google image search for your favorite athletes and SAVE THE PHOTOS. Use the angle measurement software to roughly measure the angles that they are using and compare them to yours.

I have dozens of videos like this, here is one example:

This video helped me realize that my arms needed to be extended further out several centimeters. This is a 58cm frame and simply adding a 3cm longer stem would have adversely affected the handling. So, I had a 61cm frame built that kept the same handling but gave me the longer reach...which consequently lowered my back and made me more aero.


What techniques do you folks use?
I know morphologies are different, but how tall are you? I ask as I'm new to this (Velodromes, not fixed nor road) and looking at a Felt TK1 in a 60cm. But the reach seems massive compared to my road set up (39cm reach & 11cm stem).
i can't try the TK1 before purchasing...lame.

Sorry for interrupting, I'm new and I couldn't dm you, Carleton.
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Old 11-30-18, 09:49 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Gingerdamous View Post
I know morphologies are different, but how tall are you? I ask as I'm new to this (Velodromes, not fixed nor road) and looking at a Felt TK1 in a 60cm. But the reach seems massive compared to my road set up (39cm reach & 11cm stem).
i can't try the TK1 before purchasing...lame.

Sorry for interrupting, I'm new and I couldn't dm you, Carleton.
I'm 6'1" with a long torso.

Also, narrow bars, 33-35cm wide, require longer reach because when you bring the arms together (from say 44cm road bars), the back goes up. To get the back to go down again, you need to go outwards...with more reach.
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Old 11-30-18, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I'm 6'1" with a long torso.

Also, narrow bars, 33-35cm wide, require longer reach because when you bring the arms together (from say 44cm road bars), the back goes up. To get the back to go down again, you need to go outwards...with more reach.
Thanks, that's helpful as I'm 6'2" with avg or shorter torso, but long, gangly arms.

Road bars are 42, but I get what you're saying. And to compensate for stack I'll just hunt down a stem with the correct upwards angle.

Obviously position would need to be refined on any frame, but getting the frame right to start is massively important.

Again, I value your insight, thank you for the help.
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Old 12-01-18, 12:24 AM
  #71  
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Glad to help!

Itís an expensive purchase. Maybe pay a fitter to put the TK1ís specs into a fit bike so you can sit on that geometry.

Between 57cm and 60cm, I would imagine that 60 would be a better platform. But, testing would be a better way to decide.
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Old 12-01-18, 04:21 PM
  #72  
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During a pro bike-fit I was advised to use wedge footbeds in my shoes to keep my legs aligned. I don't know if there is a way to do this during a DIY bike bit.
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Old 12-01-18, 04:43 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel View Post
During a pro bike-fit I was advised to use wedge footbeds in my shoes to keep my legs aligned. I don't know if there is a way to do this during a DIY bike bit.
You can cut handlebar tape into the right shape and put it underneath the inner sole, but it is better to use a harder plastic cut into shape which is tricky to do. Specialized make wedges that go under the forefoot, but they take up a bit of space in the shoe.
https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Spe...ck-Varus/DF6F#
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Old 12-01-18, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Minion1 View Post
You can cut handlebar tape into the right shape and put it underneath the inner sole, but it is better to use a harder plastic cut into shape which is tricky to do. Specialized make wedges that go under the forefoot, but they take up a bit of space in the shoe.
https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Spe...ck-Varus/DF6F#
Yes - I use Specialized wedge insoles that replace those originally provided with the shoes.
My point in my post was to point out that a DIY bike fit may not identify leg alignment issues.
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Old 12-01-18, 07:41 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel View Post
Yes - I use Specialized wedge insoles that replace those originally provided with the shoes.
My point in my post was to point out that a DIY bike fit may not identify leg alignment issues.
OK. I guess we should just burn this thread then. No sense in us learning about other stuff. What good will that do?
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