gugie 

I was asked by Bob Freeman over in the CR list to post this:

Hello C&V-ers. I wonder if anyone recognizes from the features who may have made this frame? Note the particular style of the fastback stays, with the edges of the stays defined, and the hidden binder bolt. Also, the wolf-ear lugs. Fork crown is
the Davidson MER innie type. Flush internal brake cable. Campy vertical dropouts. I reckon it is from the late 80s, and likely California-made. Painted by Joe Bell, but he doesn't know who made it. Any ideas?

Mystery American made frame from late 80s | Flickr

Note: Bob's usually the one answering these types of questions, so I'm guessing this is a real stumper.

billytwosheds 

Perhaps BG? I don't see any serial numbers in the Flickr pics, but also have't checked the CR thread.

It's sweet as. And that Selle saddle isn't something I've seen before.

merziac

I don't expect it to help me as I have no idea, especially with Wolfs ear lugs and vertical RDO's, quite a disparity but I think we need to see the underside of the BB and whatever treatment there is.

Looks like interesting cable guide(s).

Assume Jim has been consulted.

jamesdak 

IDK, but that's a beauty!

Bianchigirll 

Tell whoever owns it I said "Welcome to the 'It looks like a really nice frame but I have no idea club' "

MooneyBloke

No clue. Lurve everything but that seat. Needs a SSM Rolls and maybe some a bit better sew-ups. That lug thinning reminds me of Chris Kvale, but that's not intended as an identification. And of course the JB paint is drool worthy.

velomateo

So many great details and the Joe Bell paint is fantastic. That fork and the workmanship bring Bill Davidson to my mind, would have been something special if it was from his shop.

steelbikeguy

Just looking at the seatstay detail... I browsed through some of my old magazine scans, and came up with Erickson and Columbine as possibilities. They were well known builders back in the era of the fade paint schemes. Not sure how you'd ever prove or disprove who the builder is without more details.





Steve in Peoria

USAZorro

What if it isn't from an American builder? I have no idea what it is, but why limit the consideration based on a hunch?

panzerwagon 

Seat-stay work somewhat reminds me of Chris Pauley, but his more ornate work showed less defined outlines. However, he did use a few different styles.

Rick_D

Pretty bike. Some similarities to my Davidson Stiletto (mid 90s) but at the same time, many differences. For the record I do not know how earlier Stilettos differed. Davidson catalogs offered components, including lugs, dropouts, etc. along with frames and bikes.

Crapcam shot.


Not orange in real life.

Rick_D

His Signature models were bespoke, so...?

merziac

Lets keep in mind that Bob is an expert on Davidson and Erickson as well as most else so he has ruled them out so far.

As Mark said, Bob's normally the one answering these questions.

unworthy1

I'd like to add another vote for Chris Pauley, except I cannot because there just isn't any example of a frame he was the confirmed builder of that matches details of this example.
I have an infamous sample I never got final "ID closure" with that has a unique treatment of the fastback seat cluster with "frenched" seat pinch bolt.

Many folks who chimed in suggested it could have been Tim Issacs (there is some similarity so worth further checks), see the pic of yellow frame; or Peter Johnson (don't see any match there, but I wish!) see pic of one of his, a blue frame

But as for the ID of my frame I finally decided Pauley was the most likely since he seems to have been very unorthodox as far as many of his frames displaying far-different features, plus not "signing" much of his work (unlike most of the other Cali-based builders who have had his level of skills)

detail of the (red) fork steerer "butt" of OP's shows straight 'splines" that i think mean a Tange (or perhaps Ishiwata) steerer and not Columbus...is that a clue?

Final pic is one of my own tomato-red mystery frame, the critical detail I had to cut out (off) was the gap between the seat says has a short "tube" the shaft of the hidden bolt went thru, and a saw-kerf gap in the center of this tube, so when the pinch bolt was tight the gap was closed up and invisible. Sort of a useless feature and when the bolt broke off inside that fancy detail there was no way to salvage it, but was the kind of masterwork that had to be done by somebody highly skilled who wanted to show the world, "just because he could do it".


Tim Issacs seat cluster

Peter Johnson cluster

steerer in OP's fork with fat and STRAIGHT splines

My mystery, maybe Chris Pauley

One more question that may be a clue: those vertical DOs of the frame in question do not appear to be Campy 1060s or another "vert" that I recognize, such as Shimano, SunTour or Ritchey, does anybody here know what they are?

Roger M

The seat stay pinch bolt area looks similar to my Michael Johnson. He did learn from Albert Eisentraut. Going off of that part of the frame, I would guess that frame could have been built by one of the people that worked under him?

gugie 

Bob Freeman and Bill Davidson co-owned Elliot Bay Cycles in Seattle for 31 years, and Bob still has all of the serial numbers and owner paperwork. I'm pretty sure he'd know if it was a Davidson. He checked with Joe Bell, who couldn't recall what marque it was.

It's extremely rare for Bob to be stumped on anything bike related. At Eroica California several years ago we invited him over for an after Linn's dinner drinking and bull session at the house we rented. Three steps into the kitchen he saw our pile of bikes, after a 2 second scan he focused on a bike owned by @Spaghetti Legs and told him that the upper pulley on his Campy Record rear derailleur was incorrect. The next year during our Magical Mystery Tour of the PNW we stopped by and saw his 100+ bike collection. @nlerner saw a mint Raleigh International in the collection. He told Bob that the stem couldn't be original due to the stem bolt type. Bob corrected him and said that on that particular year many came with that exact stem, as he sold many at his shop.

For him to throw in the towel and ask others is very unusual.

unworthy1

MAYbe MJ, but if this seatcluster is typical of his, it's not an exact match to the "gugie/Freeman mystery" nor anything that Eisentraut built (typically). Haven't seen enough of MJ's to see if he varied that cluster style during his span of work


note how stay tops attach to the seat lug at rear

if this is a Campy vertical it's been modified, note the "window" with straight line at lower RH and the eyelet's gone

panzerwagon 

Another Pauley example from https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-big-bike.html



For me, the defined seat-stay edges in the subject frame points away from Pauley.

unworthy1

I agree^ but worth noting that both this green and the previous red Pauley (with fancy seat 'lug" top edge) are both fillet-brazed samples and CP was known to often use lugs as well, but those were quite finessed when he did use them.

I have to concur that this "Freeman frame" is probably made by some California frame builder, but I'm stumped too (and far out of the gugie/freeman league!)

I wonder if the genius of image-seaching, none other than @MauriceMoss would consider applying his skills to this?

merziac

Lots of anomalies here, not the least of which is the unevenness of the seatstays at the back of the seatlug.

Not the typical work of the builders we are discussing here.

JohnDThompson 

That was my first thought as well; the seat cluster is very similar. But both the TS Isaac frames I have here have a blind hole for the post binder bolt, while this frame has an opening on the non-drive side:


My frames:

jdawginsc 

Is it definitely a California builder? One of the cool little features is the FD cable guide wraps around the BB shell until vertical. That is cool.

I have nothing of any worth to add as far as a guess though, but my first inkling was maybe an early or oddball Bruce Gordon, or Michael Johnson? But again, I know nada about the breadth of the builders out there.

gugie 

Good point, got a name?

JohnDThompson 

Why don't you think they aren't Campagnolo 1060 dropouts? Close up:

panzerwagon 

To my eyes at least, the subject frame’s rear dropout cutout appears to curve a bit around the axle axis, whereas the 1060 cutout appears straight and indifferent toward the axle.