Does anyone know who may have made this?
#26
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Thread Starter
Would that person be well known if they built only three frames? I'm wondering what to do with this now. I am getting a Canopus frame that the Campy parts can be installed on. Then make this any thing I want, fixie, local commuter or something else. Something about not knowing who made it. It's like a Bastard bike. Is there any way to determine the tubing. Given the frame weight and tube diameter?
#27
Newbie
Not sure if someone has already mentioned this but the fork crown looks distinctive—plain on the outside shape, yet features the long spear points extending down the inner side of the fork blades. I’d be curious know the wheel base. So odd to me that there would be fender eyelets on the dropouts with such tight clearances up at the fork crown.
#28
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Thread Starter
No one has mentioned the front fork per say. I never noticed the long spear to take a good look. The bike was light and rode very well so I bought them close to 40 years ago. The wheel base is 39 1/2" but can stretch to 40" in the rear drop out. The long spear points are on the inside of the inner crown. The eyelets I don't know about. I've thought about a front rack but never found how to mount one. I have had a rear rack on it before. What would a good frame weigh from the late 60's? Thanks for the reply.
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There was a Mexican bike branded Condor, too. Since the frame parts--the flat fork crown and Cinelli-like lugs-look Italian and since Latin American pro bikes follow Italian patterns (Windsor, Carabela) maybe it's a Mexican Condor?
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#31
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I found that a Mr. Benotto, Italian frame builder, went to Mexico (Guadalajara) and opened a shop with the name CONDOR. Then moved to Mexico City and changed the name. In looking at Italian Benotto bicycles, there is a remarkable similarity. Thank you Feldman. Now if I could find pictures of Mexican "Benotto" CONDORs. They weren't there very long I gather.
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This Mexican Benotto link sounds an interesting possibility.
Will look forward to reading the research results.
Regrding the fork crown:
do not know the maker but have never seen it on a non-Italian machine
Regarding tubing:
the pillar size suggests it is something other than Columbus DB
might be a form of Falck or Columbus plain gauge
three simple checks you can make -
a) examine steerer interior, if helical ribs ("rifling") present it is Columbus
b) examine steerer exterior for any markings
c) under strong light and slight magnification examine exterior of frame tube to search for marking from tubing manufacturer. paint finish appears thin enough that something may show through. a dove indicates Columbus and a letter F indicates Falck.
These two are the most likely tubing manufacturers for the frame.
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This Mexican Benotto link sounds an interesting possibility.
Will look forward to reading the research results.
Regrding the fork crown:
do not know the maker but have never seen it on a non-Italian machine
Regarding tubing:
the pillar size suggests it is something other than Columbus DB
might be a form of Falck or Columbus plain gauge
three simple checks you can make -
a) examine steerer interior, if helical ribs ("rifling") present it is Columbus
b) examine steerer exterior for any markings
c) under strong light and slight magnification examine exterior of frame tube to search for marking from tubing manufacturer. paint finish appears thin enough that something may show through. a dove indicates Columbus and a letter F indicates Falck.
These two are the most likely tubing manufacturers for the frame.
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#33
Full Member
The frame number doesen’t look
like swiss condor. And they usualy put it on the top end of the nds seat stay.
like swiss condor. And they usualy put it on the top end of the nds seat stay.
#34
Senior Member
Would that person be well known if they built only three frames? I'm wondering what to do with this now. I am getting a Canopus frame that the Campy parts can be installed on. Then make this any thing I want, fixie, local commuter or something else. Something about not knowing who made it. It's like a Bastard bike. Is there any way to determine the tubing. Given the frame weight and tube diameter?
I still think Swiss. Try looking at speedbicycles.ch. The webmaster there would know quickly if my hunch is right.
The only giveaway from tube diameter would be if the seat tube and downtube are 28.0mm instead of normal 28.6. Then we would look at French builders. But with a 27.2 post this is vanishingly unlikely.
Bastard bikes ride as well as named bikes. They are valued way less. Biggest part of price for any used bike is the stickers.
Mexican Condor? Not impossible.
#35
Senior Member
Wait... 26.8 post. Check OD of seat tube. If 28.0 then superlight French. Which again could be Swiss. Also check it is correct size post. If seat lug ears look smashed in/ slot not straight then you have undersized post. Other possibility is the frame is built with 0.8 straight gauge, which is common enough. And used on very fine frames as well as on lesser frames.
#37
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The seat tube is 28.75 with paint. The seat tube slot is .145 at it's bottom and .149 at the top so it's spread a little. The seat post is tight. As in twist and pull.
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#39
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Well the color is the same. If the lugs were changed along with the seat stay treatment maybe. I would like to see the inside of your front fork at the crown. What size is your seat post? How is the rear brake cable attached?
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@rgppgr I know of a person in Alexandria that builds his own bike frames. I think he has built 3 maybe 4. He won't build for anyone else due to the liability risks. I think number 3 frame was made with Richard Sachs tubes and lugs. He even builds his own forks now.
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Upon the occasion of the frameset's construction in the late 1960's Aelle was not as yet a twinkle in the eye of Sig. A.L. Colombo.
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Yeah, I guess you are right. Wonder what other pipes would be age appropriate? Smiles, MH
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I assume you found this thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...s-history.html
It’s got a pic of one bike that’s supposedly a Mexican Condor/Benotto.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...s-history.html
It’s got a pic of one bike that’s supposedly a Mexican Condor/Benotto.
#45
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I assume you found this thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...s-history.html
It’s got a pic of one bike that’s supposedly a Mexican Condor/Benotto.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...s-history.html
It’s got a pic of one bike that’s supposedly a Mexican Condor/Benotto.
#46
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Not sure if someone has already mentioned this but the fork crown looks distinctive—plain on the outside shape, yet features the long spear points extending down the inner side of the fork blades. I’d be curious know the wheel base. So odd to me that there would be fender eyelets on the dropouts with such tight clearances up at the fork crown.
regarding brake centres/reaches -
when frames are designed they are done with specific brake model(s) in mind
at the time of the frame's manufacture in the later 1960's it was common for brakesets
to be made with shorter reach on the front than the rear; Weinmann 610/750 for example
it is quite clear when we look at the rear that frame was not designed for Campag brakes. note the need for a dropbolt and even with its use the pads are all the way at the bottom of the slot. maximum reach for the standard Record caliper is 56mm and the dropbolt gives and additional 6.0mm which extends this down to 62mm.
on the front there are two possible reasons for the closeness -
a) manufacturer designed for a caliper with a shorter reach than the Campag
b) when the OEM tubulars were replaced with wired-ons, 27 wheel was selected over the OEM 700. this would reduce the brake centres by 4.0mm.
with consultation of tables of brake reaches it appears maker may have designed for the Universal model Nr. 51 Extra brake set. in this set the front centre of slot dimension is 50.5mm and the rear 64mm.
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rgppgr -
one thing which might advance the investigation with regard to the possibility of a Benotto Mexico origin would be if you could post an image of the seat tube transfer. it appears to exhibit a crest/emblem which may be of help to the forum's Benotto experts.
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#47
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Thread Starter
-----
regarding brake centres/reaches -
when frames are designed they are done with specific brake model(s) in mind
at the time of the frame's manufacture in the later 1960's it was common for brakesets
to be made with shorter reach on the front than the rear; Weinmann 610/750 for example
it is quite clear when we look at the rear that frame was not designed for Campag brakes. note the need for a dropbolt and even with its use the pads are all the way at the bottom of the slot. maximum reach for the standard Record caliper is 56mm and the dropbolt gives and additional 6.0mm which extends this down to 62mm.
on the front there are two possible reasons for the closeness -
a) manufacturer designed for a caliper with a shorter reach than the Campag
b) when the OEM tubulars were replaced with wired-ons, 27 wheel was selected over the OEM 700. this would reduce the brake centres by 4.0mm.
with consultation of tables of brake reaches it appears maker may have designed for the Universal model Nr. 51 Extra brake set. in this set the front centre of slot dimension is 50.5mm and the rear 64mm.
---
rgppgr -
one thing which might advance the investigation with regard to the possibility of a Benotto Mexico origin would be if you could post an image of the seat tube transfer. it appears to exhibit a crest/emblem which may be of help to the forum's Benotto experts.
-----
regarding brake centres/reaches -
when frames are designed they are done with specific brake model(s) in mind
at the time of the frame's manufacture in the later 1960's it was common for brakesets
to be made with shorter reach on the front than the rear; Weinmann 610/750 for example
it is quite clear when we look at the rear that frame was not designed for Campag brakes. note the need for a dropbolt and even with its use the pads are all the way at the bottom of the slot. maximum reach for the standard Record caliper is 56mm and the dropbolt gives and additional 6.0mm which extends this down to 62mm.
on the front there are two possible reasons for the closeness -
a) manufacturer designed for a caliper with a shorter reach than the Campag
b) when the OEM tubulars were replaced with wired-ons, 27 wheel was selected over the OEM 700. this would reduce the brake centres by 4.0mm.
with consultation of tables of brake reaches it appears maker may have designed for the Universal model Nr. 51 Extra brake set. in this set the front centre of slot dimension is 50.5mm and the rear 64mm.
---
rgppgr -
one thing which might advance the investigation with regard to the possibility of a Benotto Mexico origin would be if you could post an image of the seat tube transfer. it appears to exhibit a crest/emblem which may be of help to the forum's Benotto experts.
-----
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path is internal
holes in top tube are roughly oval with a metal grommet surrounding them
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subject frame definitely not a Puch/Steyr/A-D product
you can safely cross it off candidates list
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path is internal
holes in top tube are roughly oval with a metal grommet surrounding them
---
subject frame definitely not a Puch/Steyr/A-D product
you can safely cross it off candidates list
-----
Last edited by juvela; 01-12-20 at 11:03 PM. Reason: addition