Newspaper_Nick

Now i'd like to see the end result.

Phamilton

Looks like a stock photo to me. Why anybody would use this as an example for this discussion, beats me. The saddle is also too low. But he’s wearing cool clothes and a nice backpack.

livedarklions

Something like this set-up, right?

cyccommute 

When someone tells me that I can...no! Will...crash because I don’t brake like them, that is not telling me that “one way is better”. It is telling me that there is only one way. Many of us brake from the hoods effectively and safely. And, as has been pointed out many times, there are a whole lot of other people who are paid to ride bikes that ride the hoods and brake from there.

You’ve been shown lots of photos and videos of “experts” riding using what you call poor technique. They seem to have survived it without issue and I suspect don’t even think about it...like many of us.

cyccommute 

Nope. Wouldn’t be caught dead in jeans on a bicycle.

L134 

I think way way back Terry referenced a half dozen or so articles or quotes supporting his position. I don’t recall a single post challenging or even acknowledging those references. Is my memory faulty?

The guy I’ve seen riding on a busy blvd near home no hands at night in dark clothing and headphones would argue you are all wrong - no bars at all needed. On the other hand, he would probably say “I know it is not the best technique but I enjoy it so I do it and nothing bad has happened.” What in the world is so hard about acknowledging that?

Metieval

again twisted, because 'the eventually likeliness of crash', had nothing to do with BRAKING!!!

I am starting to think you are intentionally mixing this up

Metieval

good to see that you didn't deny twisting drop bars into a stupid angle. Which supports why you don't use the drops.

terrymorse 

I think you're right, I seem to remember the same. Like this one:

Pro Tips: How to Descend on a Road Bike - bikeexchange.com

In addition to lowering your center of gravity, riding on the drops will give you much greater control over the bikes handling thanks to better grip and less chance of your hands slipping if you hit a pothole or bump in the road. Riding on the drops will also give you greater efficiency when using the brakes as you'll have greater leverage than if you stayed on the hoods.

livedarklions

Well, given those quotes were several hundred posts and a few weeks ago, I was pretty sure he's referring to himself and others as experts.

My argument with him has nothing to do with the proper method of descending a mountain. He chose to argue with my statement to another poster that if he's comfortable riding exclusively on the hoods and it's suitable for the kind of riding he does, not riding on the drops isn't really a problem. His response was that any cyclist may encounter a situation that "warrants" riding on the drops. I'm pretty sure that's an absurd statement as I cannot recall a single incident of ever inadvertently encountering a steep, technical descent.

This whole hoods vs. hooks debate has been a double-digit page thread hijack, and part of the wholesale pattern of one poster to turn thread after thread into a symposium on how we all need to be trained to ride like racers.

terrymorse 

Your presumption is that technical descents are the only situation that warrants the use of drops. I don't think that's the only situation. Off the top of my head, here are some others:

• emergency braking
• rough and uneven pavement
• poor visibility on unfamiliar roads
• strong crosswinds
• sprinting

Metieval

some things will be learned in the school of hard knocks. In other words we can't fix stupid, but Darwin will.

cyccommute 

Both you and Morse have brought up braking from the hoods. Even if we are talking about control from the hoods, your arguments hold no water. There are numerous examples given above of people who get paid to ride bikes for a living doing things on bikes that require lots of control and they are doing it from the hoods. I’m fairly certain that even you two don’t ride exclusively in the drops 100% of the time. Just riding on the hoods doesn’t compromise control nor does braking from the hoods. Those people riding cyclocross and gravel on the hoods aren’t falling off all the time nor are their hands slipping off nor any of the other dire things you seem to think happen when any cyclist has the audacity to even touch the hoods!

Yea, that last bit was an exaggeration but only slightly.

Lemond1985

On closed courses where there are zero road hazards, yes.

Metieval

Do you have any idea how hard it is to jump off of a bike on a cyclocross course with your hands in the drops? There might be a REASON for being on the hoods on the course, the same as there is a REASON for being in the Drops!!

Actually jumping off a bike while being in the drops being harder to do than being on the hoods, just goes to show how much more secure the drops are.

cyccommute 

Okay, let’s break down your list.

• Quote:

  emergency braking

“Emergency braking” is just what it implies. Done out of necessity without prior planning. Do you ride exclusively in the drops at all times? Because if you don’t, then shifting your hands from the hoods to the drops takes at least some time that you could be using to apply the brakes from the hoods. This is an “emergency”, remember? Personally in those situations, I’m not thinking about “proper“ form. I’m thinking about not hitting whatever is causing the emergency. If I’m on the hoods, I’m braking from the hoods.

• Quote:

  rough and uneven pavement

You’ve been shown lots and lots and lots of examples of professional racers racing on surfaces that are far worse than just uneven or rough pavement while on the hoods. Perhaps they have a better skill set than the average cyclist but I haven’t seen any of them in the video examples shifting their hand position in those situations.

• Quote:

  poor visibility on unfamiliar roads

Um...huh? Most people are going to be more cautious on unfamiliar roads, never mind during poor visibility. They aren’t really going to be going that fast and need to be more upright to scan the road. Being down in the drops to get more aerodynamic advantage isn’t really a priority in that situation.

• Quote:

  strong crosswinds

And how is that going to help in a crosswind? Your surface area isn’t any different from the side when down in the drops than when upright.

• Quote:

  sprinting

That’s more of a racer thing. Even then there are examples of people sprinting from the hoods and winning a race. Perhaps it’s bad form but last I checked, bicycle racing doesn’t award points for style and/or artistic merit. Most of the rest of us aren’t going to be sprinting to win a race in the first place.

cyccommute 

Mr. Metieval met Mr. Petard. Mr. Petard met Mr. Metieval.

You do realize that cyclocross riding requires greater control than any road riding, don’t you? Your argument has been that you can’t control the bike from the hoods because reasons. If the riders doing thing that should be done on a road bike on surfaces for which the road bike wasn’t designed, shouldn’t they be wanting the greatest control possible? Using your arguments they should ride exclusively in the drops for the greatest control...whether braking or steering.

cyccommute 

You may want to go back and review all 450 pages of this thread. Their argument has been that because the racers always ride in the drops, us mere mortals should do the same.

Metieval

Cyclocross even has a way higher percentage of accidents VS road racing. Probably in part because many of them are on the hoods. It's a risk they willingly take! Just because they take a risk on the best control, doesn't change that there isn't, or is more control.

Metieval

yet YOU yourself, will say that because you see Cyclocross racers not using drops, there fore other shouldn't.


Nice hypocrisy on your argument.

Metieval

Cyclocross riders don't even need aero, yet they run deep dish wheels. because in deep thick mud/sand the wheel acts like a rudder.

It is a specific sport with a specific style of riding, yet here cyccommute is using cyclocross and applying it every other aspect of cycling.

Metieval

Endo.... cyclocross HOOD riding

Cyclocross hood riding ENDO

So many endos in cyclocross racing, and MOST of them will be while riding on the hoods.

wphamilton

I do go into fast corners with hands on hoods, and I see no difference in control. But what you say is pretty common, and you put it adamantly so serious question: why? How is it "more control" in the drops than the hoods?

ab_antiquo

For me, I have more control in the drops because I have a firmer grip on the bars and I'm able to brake with one finger (index).

While I can corner well while on the hoods when I am setting up for the turn I am braking using my pinky and ring fingers which means I have fewer fingers gripping the bars and weaker fingers working the brake lever. This sometimes means poorer modulation and entry speeds that aren't optimal. This is why when things get choppy I'm always in the drops.

Lower CG and more weight over the front hub to drive the tire into corners for better grip also come in to play when choosing to be in the drops vs. on the hoods on a long radius fast sweeper on the hoods.

livedarklions

@cyccommute beat me to the punch on tearing this list apart, t but here's two additional points- emergency braking is actually a better argument against riding the actual drops and sticking to the hooks in all situations.

Second, riding the hoods is, if anything, superior to the drops and hooks in the poor visibility/unfamiliar road situation as the rider's ability to scan by swivel neck is much greater. Also, the higher posture will also likely make the rider more visible.

I also can't help but notice that most of that list is only a problem if you're going too fast to stay within normal safety margins. You're apparently incapable of viewing this from anything but the racer perspective.