Rolling resistance in real world
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Rolling resistance in real world
Reading another thread about tires and there was talk about rolling resistance. Got me thinking about it and has it been quantified over a real world course in terms of speed on a fixed course, time passed in a fixed distance, or distance traveled in time allotted?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
Last edited by TiHabanero; 10-14-19 at 05:19 PM.
#3
Senior Member
Likes For asgelle:
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
Reading another thread about tires and there was talk about rolling resistance. Got me thinking about it and has it been quantified over a real world course in terms of speed on a fixed course, time passed in a fixed distance, or distance traveled in time allotted?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
#5
working on my sandal tan
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,629
Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)
Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3871 Post(s)
Liked 2,568 Times
in
1,579 Posts
Reading another thread about tires and there was talk about rolling resistance. Got me thinking about it and has it been quantified over a real world course in terms of speed on a fixed course, time passed in a fixed distance, or distance traveled in time allotted?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
Likes For RChung:
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Allen, TX
Posts: 2,633
Bikes: 2021 S-Works Turbo Creo SL, 2020 Specialized Roubaix Expert
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 762 Post(s)
Liked 4,032 Times
in
1,427 Posts
Reading another thread about tires and there was talk about rolling resistance. Got me thinking about it and has it been quantified over a real world course in terms of speed on a fixed course, time passed in a fixed distance, or distance traveled in time allotted?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
#8
Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: Giant Defy, Trek 1.7c, BMC GF02, Fuji Tahoe, Scott Sub 35, Kona Rove, Trek Verve+2
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked 722 Times
in
366 Posts
By choosing the lower rolling resistance tyre in real world terms it means that your coefficient of flats has increased by a ratio of 1.5/1.2. The average moving speed improvements are more than offset by the increase in time spent fixing the extra flats. But you now have something else to brag about at the coffee shop.
Likes For znomit:
#9
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4559 Post(s)
Liked 2,802 Times
in
1,800 Posts
One theory says the increased comfort from "softer" tires may translate to less fatigue and more efficiency over distance.
That's the only theory that seems to apply to my real world riding. Along with improved bike fit and physical conditioning.
Recently I've swapped my low profile wheels with 700x23 and 700x25 tires at reduced pressure (usually 70-85 psi front) to a semi-aero front wheel (30mm profile, flat blade spokes) with 700x20 tire at 120 psi or more. It's a bit harsher and more tiring over longer rides, but may be offset by slightly improved aerodyamics.
The aero wheel and skinnier, harder tire is faster on a couple of 5 mile loops and over 30-50 mile rides but only on smoother roads -- mostly new or recently repaved access roads next to highways. Little traffic and few stops at night so it's easy to compare. But that same wheel and harder tire is a chore to ride long distances on chipseal and rougher roads, which eliminates the slight aero and rolling resistance advantage.
Too subjective to be useful to anyone else.
That's the only theory that seems to apply to my real world riding. Along with improved bike fit and physical conditioning.
Recently I've swapped my low profile wheels with 700x23 and 700x25 tires at reduced pressure (usually 70-85 psi front) to a semi-aero front wheel (30mm profile, flat blade spokes) with 700x20 tire at 120 psi or more. It's a bit harsher and more tiring over longer rides, but may be offset by slightly improved aerodyamics.
The aero wheel and skinnier, harder tire is faster on a couple of 5 mile loops and over 30-50 mile rides but only on smoother roads -- mostly new or recently repaved access roads next to highways. Little traffic and few stops at night so it's easy to compare. But that same wheel and harder tire is a chore to ride long distances on chipseal and rougher roads, which eliminates the slight aero and rolling resistance advantage.
Too subjective to be useful to anyone else.
Likes For canklecat:
#10
Senior Member
Bicyclerollingresistance.com does rolling resistance tests on rollers with a bumpy surface, vs. the perfectly flat rollers that were long used. The theory is that this simulates a more typical riding surface for everyone except velodrome racers! They also do testing at various speeds, not just 25 mph racing speeds.
That type of testing has shown that for most non-racers narrower and higher pressure does not always mean lower rolling resistance. In fact, for the speeds I go at and the roads I ride on, narrow tires at high pressure make no sense. At 15 - 18 mph average, the aero factors are minimal - and my gigantic body width swamps the contribution of the wheels in wind resistance by a huge margin anyway.
I agree with the earlier poster about flats - I'll spend a watt or two to reduce flatting on the road to near zero. BicycleRollingResistance also does puncture resistance testing.
That type of testing has shown that for most non-racers narrower and higher pressure does not always mean lower rolling resistance. In fact, for the speeds I go at and the roads I ride on, narrow tires at high pressure make no sense. At 15 - 18 mph average, the aero factors are minimal - and my gigantic body width swamps the contribution of the wheels in wind resistance by a huge margin anyway.
I agree with the earlier poster about flats - I'll spend a watt or two to reduce flatting on the road to near zero. BicycleRollingResistance also does puncture resistance testing.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 3,247
Bikes: Moots Vamoots, Colnago C60, Santa Cruz Stigmata CC, and too many other bikes I don't ride
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
https://anonymous.coward.free.fr/watt...direct-cda.pdf read, understand, think
#12
Newbie racer
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,406
Bikes: Propel, red is faster
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 1,569 Times
in
974 Posts
It matters.
While the CRR and watts on BRR might not be absolute, the deltas are probably pretty good when doing comparisons.
I get tons of miles out of GP4000's, and assume 5000's would also. I wouldn't commute on them. But for training and racing, yeah.
It's not data, but I've put out power PR's on some personal segments by over 40w before only to still be slower overall......because I was on my "gravel/multisurface" setup with Gators on the bike. Wind those days being negligible.
Also, difference when I was TT'ing practice on a tubular Conti sprinter was dog crap CRR compared to a race tire. It can be shocking how much it matters.
While the CRR and watts on BRR might not be absolute, the deltas are probably pretty good when doing comparisons.
I get tons of miles out of GP4000's, and assume 5000's would also. I wouldn't commute on them. But for training and racing, yeah.
It's not data, but I've put out power PR's on some personal segments by over 40w before only to still be slower overall......because I was on my "gravel/multisurface" setup with Gators on the bike. Wind those days being negligible.
Also, difference when I was TT'ing practice on a tubular Conti sprinter was dog crap CRR compared to a race tire. It can be shocking how much it matters.
Likes For RChung:
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
By choosing the lower rolling resistance tyre in real world terms it means that your coefficient of flats has increased by a ratio of 1.5/1.2. The average moving speed improvements are more than offset by the increase in time spent fixing the extra flats. But you now have something else to brag about at the coffee shop.
Let's not talk about tubeless.
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
#15
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,528
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
Reading another thread about tires and there was talk about rolling resistance. Got me thinking about it and has it been quantified over a real world course in terms of speed on a fixed course, time passed in a fixed distance, or distance traveled in time allotted?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
For example if tire A has rolling resistance of 1.2 and tire B has rolling resistance of 1.5 (being of greater resistance) how does that translate to real world use as described above?
If you're an ordinary bloke, you look at power/speed on different surfaces with different tires and pressures. I don't think it's possible to make really fine judgements in ordinary riding, but I think it's pretty easy to tell a high CRR tire from a low one.
I haven't found low CRR tires to necessarily incur more flats. It's more complicated that that, and also more complicated than the BRR puncture coefficient.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#16
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4559 Post(s)
Liked 2,802 Times
in
1,800 Posts
Yeah, regarding punctures, I haven't experienced any more punctures at lower pressure than high or max pressure. But I weigh 150 now, which may help. I weighed 175 when I resumed cycling in 2015 after a 30 year hiatus.
Now I tend to split the difference between the max pressure on the sidewalls and the various formulas for low pressure. Usually with 700x23 that works out to 100 psi rear, 85 front, and for 700x25 around 90 rear, 75 front. I could go lower but that feels about right in handling and comfort. I go by the feel over some familiar rough road patches. If it feels a bit harsh I'll stop and tap the valve a few spurts.
So far my only pinch flat occurred when I was pinched between a couple of trucks and couldn't avoid a brick in the road. No pinch flats on normal rough road spots.
Now I tend to split the difference between the max pressure on the sidewalls and the various formulas for low pressure. Usually with 700x23 that works out to 100 psi rear, 85 front, and for 700x25 around 90 rear, 75 front. I could go lower but that feels about right in handling and comfort. I go by the feel over some familiar rough road patches. If it feels a bit harsh I'll stop and tap the valve a few spurts.
So far my only pinch flat occurred when I was pinched between a couple of trucks and couldn't avoid a brick in the road. No pinch flats on normal rough road spots.
#18
Globo Gym lifetime member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redmond, Oregon
Posts: 5,204
Bikes: Fast ones
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked 614 Times
in
306 Posts
Watts are watts. Run a Hard Case tire with butyl tubes, then switch to a GP5K with latex tubes and tell me you didn't pick up 2+ mph at the same wattage.
Likes For Cypress:
#19
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,528
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
Edit: all that's necessary is for the tester to follow the procedure in your document.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 10-16-19 at 09:43 AM.
Likes For Carbonfiberboy:
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
With C6H12O6 + 6O2 → 6CO2 + 6H2O (glucose + oxygen -> carbon dioxide + water) for aerobic effort, anyone know precisely where all the water goes? I'm thinking respiration mostly, or a definable percentage of it to define a relation with energy. Then are there enough of the "6H2O" respired to be able to measure? Any biologists out there that have done the math?
You'd have to account for perspiration also but surely you could collect it and weigh it, for a few rides anyway.
#21
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,528
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
This makes me wonder if there is a "kitchen table science" way to measure physiological energy produced, since you'd need to know that instead of/addition to power meter measurements.
With C6H12O6 + 6O2 → 6CO2 + 6H2O (glucose + oxygen -> carbon dioxide + water) for aerobic effort, anyone know precisely where all the water goes? I'm thinking respiration mostly, or a definable percentage of it to define a relation with energy. Then are there enough of the "6H2O" respired to be able to measure? Any biologists out there that have done the math?
You'd have to account for perspiration also but surely you could collect it and weigh it, for a few rides anyway.
With C6H12O6 + 6O2 → 6CO2 + 6H2O (glucose + oxygen -> carbon dioxide + water) for aerobic effort, anyone know precisely where all the water goes? I'm thinking respiration mostly, or a definable percentage of it to define a relation with energy. Then are there enough of the "6H2O" respired to be able to measure? Any biologists out there that have done the math?
You'd have to account for perspiration also but surely you could collect it and weigh it, for a few rides anyway.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Layton, UT
Posts: 1,606
Bikes: 2011 Bent TW Elegance 2014 Carbon Strada Velomobile
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Liked 701 Times
in
418 Posts
By choosing the lower rolling resistance tyre in real world terms it means that your coefficient of flats has increased by a ratio of 1.5/1.2. The average moving speed improvements are more than offset by the increase in time spent fixing the extra flats. But you now have something else to brag about at the coffee shop.
I ride on practically bulletproof tires that are on the heavy side, plus have liners in them. But I commute and need to get to work reliably. They still roll reasonably well. I don't feel the difference as much on the velo, because it's already 70 lbs, but it's more noticeable on the (recumbent) bike.
Once I get the velo up to speed though, aerodynamics becomes more important, and that's where it really shines. I had some Kojaks on my bent when I was in Tucson, and on the smooth bike trails around town, they were nice and fast, but it seems like on the surface streets, which were much rougher on average, my 'slow' commuting tires were slightly faster (and way more comfortable).
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
IME blood volume and tissue H2O storage increases, and then you pee it out over the next day or two if there's been enough riding and effort time to accumulate a serious amount of H2O. And of course the sweat and respiration losses, as you say. That's not precise of course, just IME. There's also the water released by glycogen breakdown, which I think accounts for a lot of that pee.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,945
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3948 Post(s)
Liked 7,291 Times
in
2,945 Posts
#25
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4559 Post(s)
Liked 2,802 Times
in
1,800 Posts