Where should a SAG wagon for a small group drive?
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Where should a SAG wagon for a small group drive?
Ok, so there is another thread about a series of events that went horribly wrong.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-...las-vegas.html
And, another group that was hit in Kalamazoo when the driver was so impaired that there was no safe place to ride on, or even near the road. A support vehicle may or may not have created a buffer.
We don't have all the details in the Nevada incident yet, but we know that there were riders, and a SAG/Support vehicle that ended up in the middle of the group.
They were riding along a divided state highway that had a narrow, but generally rideable shoulder, and fast moving traffic lanes.
I don't think I'll make this as a poll, but leave this as a general opinion topic. Say vehicle is accompanying a tight nit group that is generally spread out over less than a mile. A large organized "Century Ride" with riders spread out over dozens of miles would be different. In Nevada, it was a 4-lane divided highway with moderate shoulders.
Around here, most of the cycling routes would be 2-lane roads and traffic in both directions, some with wide shoulders, some without.
So, some suggestions:
..
We are all seeing the woes of driving in the middle of a group. Although at this time, we can't say whether the Nevada accident would have been worse or not if the SAG vehicle was not with the group at all.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-...las-vegas.html
And, another group that was hit in Kalamazoo when the driver was so impaired that there was no safe place to ride on, or even near the road. A support vehicle may or may not have created a buffer.
We don't have all the details in the Nevada incident yet, but we know that there were riders, and a SAG/Support vehicle that ended up in the middle of the group.
They were riding along a divided state highway that had a narrow, but generally rideable shoulder, and fast moving traffic lanes.
I don't think I'll make this as a poll, but leave this as a general opinion topic. Say vehicle is accompanying a tight nit group that is generally spread out over less than a mile. A large organized "Century Ride" with riders spread out over dozens of miles would be different. In Nevada, it was a 4-lane divided highway with moderate shoulders.
Around here, most of the cycling routes would be 2-lane roads and traffic in both directions, some with wide shoulders, some without.
So, some suggestions:
.
- Drive as much on the shoulder as possible, even if that means running over rumbles, perhaps a wheel on the dirt, and occasionally dodging reflectors and signs.
- Drive straddling the rumble strips or fog line. 1 or 2 feet of the car on the road.
- Drive fully in a traffic lane (4 lane road, or 2 lane road).
- Hop Scotch. Pass cyclists and park somewhere. Wait for them to catch up, and move ahead again. Or, do so from behind. No "Shield" function, although one could carry a "cyclists ahead" banner if in the rear.
We are all seeing the woes of driving in the middle of a group. Although at this time, we can't say whether the Nevada accident would have been worse or not if the SAG vehicle was not with the group at all.
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The car should be behind the group, for sure. That was the only real big mistake I think this group made.
As for lane positioning. In the scenario being discussed, I'd say the car should be as far right as practical, in this case, probably straddling the rumble strips. I would have put some sort of sign on the vehicle warning that there are riders ahead and may be spread out.
In general, the SAG vehicle has two functions:
1) carrying spares, food, etc that is too heavy for the riders to carry.
2) Provide a large, visible buffer between upcoming traffic and the bike riders.
On a wider should, the car could potentially be completely in the shoulder, right of the fog line. If it's that wide (on a highway) that's what I would recommend. Hazard lights should be considered a given, with some additional indication that it isn't just a stopped/slow moving vehicle and that there are riders ahead.
As for lane positioning. In the scenario being discussed, I'd say the car should be as far right as practical, in this case, probably straddling the rumble strips. I would have put some sort of sign on the vehicle warning that there are riders ahead and may be spread out.
In general, the SAG vehicle has two functions:
1) carrying spares, food, etc that is too heavy for the riders to carry.
2) Provide a large, visible buffer between upcoming traffic and the bike riders.
On a wider should, the car could potentially be completely in the shoulder, right of the fog line. If it's that wide (on a highway) that's what I would recommend. Hazard lights should be considered a given, with some additional indication that it isn't just a stopped/slow moving vehicle and that there are riders ahead.
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That would probably be my choice. I might even drive on the rumbles or on the gravel, but it could be an awful long drive that way.
One of the points that I make about riding as far right as possible is that evasive action of overtaking vehicles can be less severe, and two cars could even move over a little to safely get past.
Straddling the fog line does have the issue that a driver coming up on the vehicle from behind at high speed may assume the vehicle is fully off the road when in fact it is not.
As a cyclist, hard to say if I would jump on a bumper for a nip of a draft. Of course they also had group drafting, so only moderate benefit from drafting behind the car. Even if drafting behind the car, I would have chosen to be off the roadway.
One of the points that I make about riding as far right as possible is that evasive action of overtaking vehicles can be less severe, and two cars could even move over a little to safely get past.
Straddling the fog line does have the issue that a driver coming up on the vehicle from behind at high speed may assume the vehicle is fully off the road when in fact it is not.
As a cyclist, hard to say if I would jump on a bumper for a nip of a draft. Of course they also had group drafting, so only moderate benefit from drafting behind the car. Even if drafting behind the car, I would have chosen to be off the roadway.
#4
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I think an additional consideration is the gap between the last rider and the SAG. A high-speed rear-end collision will push that SAG forward a considerable distance.
I would vote for SAG straddling the rumble strips, hazard lights on, mounted with a tall flag like what off-road vehicles use in the dunes or orange triangle like used by farm vehicles, and at least six (?) car lengths back from the last rider. Honestly, I don't know what a safe distance would be. Just throwing out a number for discussion.
I would vote for SAG straddling the rumble strips, hazard lights on, mounted with a tall flag like what off-road vehicles use in the dunes or orange triangle like used by farm vehicles, and at least six (?) car lengths back from the last rider. Honestly, I don't know what a safe distance would be. Just throwing out a number for discussion.
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I will say that police officers tend to like to park so their vehicle extends beyond the vehicle in front of them, even into the travel lanes. Of course, they have a lot more lights than the typical SAG vehicle with hazards on.
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Obviously know the local laws for road travel. Some freeways have a posted minimum speed. If bicycles are allowed on the shoulders, the SAG might also be allowed on the shoulder.
Nevada has a problem that parts of Nevada have relatively few paved secondary roads, so there are a lot of high speed highways that cyclists have to contend with. That appears to be worse in the south than in the north.
Nevada has a problem that parts of Nevada have relatively few paved secondary roads, so there are a lot of high speed highways that cyclists have to contend with. That appears to be worse in the south than in the north.
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Ok, so there is another thread about a series of events that went horribly wrong.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-...las-vegas.html
And, another group that was hit in Kalamazoo when the driver was so impaired that there was no safe place to ride on, or even near the road. A support vehicle may or may not have created a buffer.
We don't have all the details in the Nevada incident yet, but we know that there were riders, and a SAG/Support vehicle that ended up in the middle of the group.
They were riding along a divided state highway that had a narrow, but generally rideable shoulder, and fast moving traffic lanes.
I don't think I'll make this as a poll, but leave this as a general opinion topic. Say vehicle is accompanying a tight nit group that is generally spread out over less than a mile. A large organized "Century Ride" with riders spread out over dozens of miles would be different. In Nevada, it was a 4-lane divided highway with moderate shoulders.
Around here, most of the cycling routes would be 2-lane roads and traffic in both directions, some with wide shoulders, some without.
So, some suggestions:
..
We are all seeing the woes of driving in the middle of a group. Although at this time, we can't say whether the Nevada accident would have been worse or not if the SAG vehicle was not with the group at all.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-...las-vegas.html
And, another group that was hit in Kalamazoo when the driver was so impaired that there was no safe place to ride on, or even near the road. A support vehicle may or may not have created a buffer.
We don't have all the details in the Nevada incident yet, but we know that there were riders, and a SAG/Support vehicle that ended up in the middle of the group.
They were riding along a divided state highway that had a narrow, but generally rideable shoulder, and fast moving traffic lanes.
I don't think I'll make this as a poll, but leave this as a general opinion topic. Say vehicle is accompanying a tight nit group that is generally spread out over less than a mile. A large organized "Century Ride" with riders spread out over dozens of miles would be different. In Nevada, it was a 4-lane divided highway with moderate shoulders.
Around here, most of the cycling routes would be 2-lane roads and traffic in both directions, some with wide shoulders, some without.
So, some suggestions:
.
- Drive as much on the shoulder as possible, even if that means running over rumbles, perhaps a wheel on the dirt, and occasionally dodging reflectors and signs.
- Drive straddling the rumble strips or fog line. 1 or 2 feet of the car on the road.
- Drive fully in a traffic lane (4 lane road, or 2 lane road).
- Hop Scotch. Pass cyclists and park somewhere. Wait for them to catch up, and move ahead again. Or, do so from behind. No "Shield" function, although one could carry a "cyclists ahead" banner if in the rear.
We are all seeing the woes of driving in the middle of a group. Although at this time, we can't say whether the Nevada accident would have been worse or not if the SAG vehicle was not with the group at all.
*Given that the SAG in this instance is traveling ~20 mph on a 75 mph highway, maybe some accessory rooftop lights mightn't be a bad idea, assuming such things are legal etc
Last edited by Litespud; 12-17-20 at 12:25 PM.
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One better option would be for the SAG to wait pulled entirely off the roadway, and then every 15 minutes or so (or if summoned) use a travel lane at traffic speeds to catch up and then pull over again in the next safe spot.
Another if there's this kind of gravel shoulder and a sufficiently rugged vehicle would be to follow the group on that.
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To me, sag means come along later and help out as needed. This arrangement was not safe at all. If you look at how races like the TDC are run there are cars ahead and then far behind the riders. If this event can’t do that then it’s just not safe. And why are they riding on a high speed road with rumble stripes on the shoulder anyway? In all the articles I’ve read none have mentioned the name of this event. Was there a sponsor or just a yearly event by some buddies? Sad.
Further comment: This event was being run halfway between an all out road race and a club ride. Very sad result but maybe a lesson. The riders would have been safer on another road with no support cars.
Further comment: This event was being run halfway between an all out road race and a club ride. Very sad result but maybe a lesson. The riders would have been safer on another road with no support cars.
Last edited by Joe Bikerider; 12-17-20 at 07:28 PM.
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To me, sag means come along later and help out as needed. This arrangement was not safe at all. If you look at how races like the TDC are run there are cars ahead and then far behind the riders. If this event can’t do that then it’s just not safe. And why are they riding on a high speed road with rumble stripes on the shoulder anyway? In all the articles I’ve read none have mentioned the name of this event. Was there a sponsor or just a yearly event by some buddies? Sad.
Further comment: This event was being run halfway between an all out road race and a club ride. Very sad result but maybe a lesson. The riders would have been safer on another road with no support cars.
Further comment: This event was being run halfway between an all out road race and a club ride. Very sad result but maybe a lesson. The riders would have been safer on another road with no support cars.
Most of those riders are also doing thousands and thousands of miles of group training rides, and I would imagine most of the rides have some kind of group support vehicles with them. So, support vehicles have to be an issue that comes up with certain groups.
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The riders would have been safer on another road
I'm not sure that the danger in riding to the right of the rumble strips on that road is any greater than in other sorts of road rides. Yes, speeds are high, but the point of the rumble strips is to make crossing them a very unusual/intentional action, so absent weather issues, mechanical failures, etc there would seem very little reason for car bike conflict in between intersections.
Taking the lane on an ordinary road requires drivers to actively respond; taking the shoulder across a rumble strip merely requires that they just keep going.
with no support cars.
- perhaps in forgetting the slower moving or stopped vehicles get hit fairly frequently (even if the occupants may be protected enough to survive)
- perhaps in not realizing how far a car can be pushed in a collision
- perhaps in making riding decisions based on the presence of the car, that wouldn't be made without it
I also can't help but wonder if the decision to draft the car was something thought up in the moment on the ride, rather than a considered part of the original plan. And if so, if it changed the lane use strategy.
It would be interesting too, to know what traffic volume was like. If the road felt empty, that could have also impacted thinking on both sides.
#14
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Is it legal in Nevada to drive a motor vehicle 20mph on a posted 75mph highway?
A sag wagon is there to pick up riders who can’t finish, provide water, maybe food, possibly will have spare wheels, tools, etc. What is being discussed seems to be about an escort vehicle, not a sag. Asking a sag driver to be responsible as a traffic barrier— if an event promoter asked me to do such a thing I would think they were nuts.
A sag wagon doing what sag wagons normally do will drive at normal road speed, stop ten minutes safely on shoulder, get back on road until in sight of group, then pull over again.
A sag wagon is there to pick up riders who can’t finish, provide water, maybe food, possibly will have spare wheels, tools, etc. What is being discussed seems to be about an escort vehicle, not a sag. Asking a sag driver to be responsible as a traffic barrier— if an event promoter asked me to do such a thing I would think they were nuts.
A sag wagon doing what sag wagons normally do will drive at normal road speed, stop ten minutes safely on shoulder, get back on road until in sight of group, then pull over again.
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https://www.bikeforums.net/21833238-post63.html
As far as I can tell, most western states don't have a minimum freeway speed.
In Oregon, there has been a discussion about driving trucks on hills, and where it is best to drive.
Nevada has an issue with insufficient frontage roads (other states also have places with limited alternatives to the freeway), and thus one might anticipate slow moving heavy equipment on the freeway at times.
For the Nevada cyclists, there is absolutely no way I would ride a bicycle solo in the middle of a freeway lane, except for perhaps short distances carefully getting around an obstruction.
In hindsight, drafting a vehicle at 15 MPH in a traffic lane seems like a very stupid idea. I can't say if I would have done that, but I'd like to think not.
I have thought about my little Fiat 500 as a SAG Wagon. At about 4 feet wide, It would be comfortable driving at 15 MPH on the shoulder. Not much capacity for bikes and riders unless I had a trailer for it. Nonetheless, it isn't designed to take a 75 MPH hit from the rear.
Perhaps the Cinquecento Limo???
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On the few occasions I've seen group rides with with escort vehicles around here, the riders and the vehicles ride in the traffic lane. The trailing car(s) leave a reasonable space between themselves and the riders. Seems to me like the best way to do it.
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Would it even be legal for a support vehicle to straddle the fog line? I don't know about most states, but where I live that can get you a ticket for "failure to maintain a lane of traffic."
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I'd be more concerned with the qualifications of the driver than where the vehicle is. I'm sure that some organizations that sanction and/or insure such events have either something to say or maybe some say nothing. Even when they do, how well do the event promoters follow that guidance. Probably gets pretty lax till something like this happens.
And for this particular horror, most of it should be on the vehicle that hit the cyclist's and SAG vehicle.
And for this particular horror, most of it should be on the vehicle that hit the cyclist's and SAG vehicle.
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I'd be more concerned with the qualifications of the driver than where the vehicle is. I'm sure that some organizations that sanction and/or insure such events have either something to say or maybe some say nothing. Even when they do, how well do the event promoters follow that guidance. Probably gets pretty lax till something like this happens.
And for this particular horror, most of it should be on the vehicle that hit the cyclist's and SAG vehicle.
And for this particular horror, most of it should be on the vehicle that hit the cyclist's and SAG vehicle.
I think there may be more scrutiny among vehicles accompanying pro cyclists.
However, I'd have to imagine with a group of a couple dozen friends, the "support vehicle" would have been driven by a spouse or coworker.
Hopefully most charity century rides at least have an associated training course for their staff including SAG drivers. Although, most tend to roam rather than accompanying a single group.
Years ago I was on a bike-a-thon which had a pilot car, and I did draft it some, but definitely not down the middle of the freeway.
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As for the TdF and other fully professional rides, there is some training involved for drivers and certifications required if I remember correctly. With the requirements of team support and having to move up and back in the peloton along with cars and motorcycles almost in greater numbers than the number of riders it's not surprising there will be incidents no matter how well trained drivers and cyclists are educated on the dangers.