maxxevv

As they say, the proof shall be in the putting.

When things finally roll, then will we see if all the correct things were implemented.

As far as I'm familiar with the manufacturing development cycle of mechanical products, I'm fairly sure that many things are not fully accounted for since no official, peer reviewed papers (as far as I've gathered) on testing and prototyping were published/ released by Peter along the way.

We shall see how all the "real" stuff (as we call it in loose shop floor speak) rolls once the products are on the streets.

Joe Remi

IF...the products are on the streets.

maxxevv

Its at least 2 months away as far as I can see how things are moving.

But that's as far as my crystal ball will let me peek. Beyond that, I really have no clue how it will pan out.

jur

Exactly a year ago I posted that a year was a more realistic date for delivery. That was a projection based on expectations multiplied by 2. Looks like I was too conservative. Should have used factor of 3, ie mid-2018.

I can only hope Peter won't run out of cash before then.

Jipe

What is very clear is the huge underestimation of everything in this project : bike design complexity, bike testing (riding a bike for a couple of minutes with one guy isn't testing), bike manufacturing, probably price of manufacturing (all the industry comes a much higher price for bike with titanium frame, why should Peter come to a much lower price, does he have unique knowledge, unique sourcing, unique manufacturing capabilities... ?).

All this is most probably due to a huge lack of knowledge.

Dreaming of a bike is different from making a bike !

Joe Remi

What I don't understand is how every average idiot who knows two things about bicycles knew you couldn't do a titanium folder for the price of the average aluminum Dahon, but this guy built a whole business plan around it. He seems to have dreamt it up, then decided he'd collect some cash from people and somehow it would all work out cuz magic. Magic isn't a real thing!

Jipe

Seen how everything changed during the project after te end of the kickstarter campaign (at the launch of the kickstarter campaign, there were several people in the project, not only Peter, there was a titanium experienced manufacturing company associated, it was never considered or at least never communicated to backers that their money would be used to build a factory..) I do not think Peter had any valid business plan when starting the kickstarter !

And please do not tell us that the factory was needed because of the huge number of backers, more backers and more bike to build can only reduce the price of manufacturing by a sub-contractor because all fixed costs are amortized on a much bigger number of bike.

The only problem is the time needed to build and deliver a bigger number of bikes, what cannot be solved by building a factory, building a factory only increase the project timeline. It also increases the risks because it adds the risks of manufacturing problems to the risks of bike design problems.

maxxevv

Ambition got the better of his common sense after the supposed Ti factory tie-up fell apart I think ?

berlinonaut

Possibly before continuing to make false claims and accusations constantly based on a total lack of knowledge about the project and it's history combined with an arrogant attitude based on a more than dubious understanding of the meaning of prototype and testing it would maybe be a good idea to akquire at least a little bit of knowledge about the project. I do not know what the motivation for your rants is - maybe you are Joe Remis younger brother. But if you need to rant do it at least based on facts and not on phantasy.

There's no doubt a lot to criticize with how this project went until today - the strange thing is that it seems mostly to be people that are neither affected by whatever outcome the project may have nor involved financially nor have bothered to do the tiniest part of research who complain the loudest. Often enough based on obviously wrong claims, strange assumptions or w/o any foundation at all.

Jipe

There are only 3 statements in my sentence you quoted, which one is wrong according to you ?

ThorUSA

testy testy ..... I understand that backers are trying to make this mess look good, or at least go hard on people who critique the project. But this is not about getting browny points. Its about a lot of people who spend a lot of money on a dream. The whole idea of having own production with all those machines instead of outsourcing the frame is ridicoulous at best.
Even if he had a place who would built the frame and fork for him, the parts promised to be on that bike would have eaten at least 60 % of what he "sold" the bike for. In no way the money collected would pay for any machines. Yes maybe an alloy version with lower end parts made in China, would have been possible for the money he "collected"
I am hopeful that at least 1/3 of the backers eventually get a bike, but I am not holding my breath.


thor

ward00

About 10 years ago Dahon was planning to sell a Titanium Anniversary bike for $$$$. I'm still waiting for that bike as well.

jur

For at least 18 months it has been clear that it is impossible to set up a factory and pay for backers bikes. That was never disputed. Peter has been smart about that; as much as possible he leased and/or paid off big capital items. He also as much as possible capitalized on government subsidies for startups and the like, stretching KS dollar. The biggest unknown is when he runs out of cash. He very obviously at some point needs to generate profit to stay afloat. We don't know when. Could be 3,6 or 12 months.

Gibsonsean

And they're off again! Same old characters trotting out the same old half-baked pontifications based on no info. Thank goodness someone has the patience to provide informative posts based on actual facts and a bit of genuine insight in amongst the dross.

Joe Remi

They're off again! The same old posters with skin in the game who berate critics of this project suspiciously just like Jur was pressured to stop being critical on this forum. Sorry, boys, this is not a Helix advertisement. It's an open forum about bicycles, and we're going to keep taking about them. I post on F1 forums, too. I don't have money in Ferrari, either.

ThorUSA

you paid for this ? Ill make you one !

KentS

I still think it is heroic of Peter to try to make that bike.

Similarly, the backers are saints.

bhkyte

Never mind the bike but can we produce an exclusive box set series from this thread!!.

Gibsonsean

What makes you think my post was referring in any way to you?

Skin in the game? Implies self interest. Yet you know nothing of me or my motivations beyond what I have posted of them previously in response to this same refrain before.

How was Jur pressured? As opposed to asked?

What a dreary world you inhabit seeing oppression, exploitation and negativity in all you encounter.

Gibsonsean

Entertainment for all until the saga reaches a conclusion.

ward00

Thor the titanium bike was on your web site - as far as I remember, you indicated that they had to many issues with titanium and would not be able to get the bikes made for the price advertised as well as in time (sound familiar?). In any case, I was disappointed, but no money lost. In this case, I would settle for the same.

Joe Remi

I stand by my impression that "asked" is an inaccurate representation of what went down there. I also stand by my impression - despite your fantasy world of unicorns and everybody gets a cheap folding titanium bike - that someone is going to get ripped off before this is all over.

Revoltingest

Rip off | Define Rip off at Dictionary.com

That's a pretty harsh accusation to make without evidence of intention to cheat anyone.
Sure, sure...things could go south, even with the best of intentions.
But that is not to "rip off" the customer.
I took my chances ordering a bike, & I still hope for the best.
With strong sales & good reviews of the product, the price can rise for newer buyers.
It appears to be a feasible business strategy, albeit a difficult one.

jur

Here are the actual words used, with suitable snipping to show the spirit of the email:
You might have the opinion that this is moral pressure. All I can say, it worked on me because I believe I am a reasonable open minded person willing to listen and consider others' point of view seriously. There were no threats to cut me off, either direct or veiled or implied. Just a polite request. This was consistent with every other thing Peter posted, never breaking into abuse. In that respect he has been exemplary. Considering that he has worked himself into a coma for 2 years and not had much time off at all, spending large chunks of time away from family to make this venture a success, I think that's rather special. Not papering over his revealed shortcomings, but just making sure he gets due recognition. I no longer have "skin in the game" so I have no obligation other than moral to be fair.

I'm strongly hoping he makes it a success. I am thinking I might eventually replace my Moulton with a Helix, but I am enjoying the electric drive too much to consider that at the moment.

Joe Remi

Fair enough, Jur. I think I reacted to the comment about how much stress had been lifted, assuming that the admonitions about posting here were part of it.

I hear ya about electrics: I'm between ebikes at the moment, but a BBSHD-ed bike is in my near future!