RatonLaveur

I disagree with the crazy bombastic review...if one can call that a review above.

That being said, not to put too fine a point on it jipe because you've been mostly helpful in this thread but you're dead wrong.
he had a functional prototype that was already well engineered by himself in the kickstarter. He really turned on the charm and waffle of marketing for the kickstarter but not much more after that. It's hardly a Fyre Festival with no skill behind it.

He scouted and tested many technologies once he had the unexpected income of funds. And yes gluing of tubes can be considered. There are bike companies using the combination of manifolds and gluing to only assemble straight and bent tubes instead of welding. None of this is the mark of a bad engineer. Far from it. He is an accomplished designer, prototypist and engineer. He sucked at communication throughout and probably missed on manufacturing. He could have used a manufacturing engineer on staff. Also he spend a hell of a lot of time patenting which is questionable at this scale. But the man has plans i suppose.
All of this considered the bike is heavier than advertised, quite a bit more expensive than advertised (even if doubling kickstarter price) and so far no professional review has been outputted. Which is quite surprising if not downright disappointing.

theerandyman

Interesting and informative thread. Even before the comments that followed mine, I'd fine-tune my comment from, "Sounds like my kind of company" to, "If I had to choose, I'd take engineering chops over social skills." I'm not sure how much deviation one can reasonably expect/accept from initial Kickstarter specification claims to a final product. I'm mostly referring to the weight discrepancy. Should they have offered refunds to initial backers when they realized it would be heavier than claimed? Probably. As for the price, didn't the initial backers get the bikes at the early-investor price? After that, the company can charge anything they want. Maybe (probably) I'm missing something on this point. As for Jipe's review, it's not comprehensive but it says a lot from someone who is actually riding one of these bikes every day. Maybe the consensus, once there are some reviews, will not deem the bike a masterpiece. But I'm glad someone who bought one, and who seems to know his stuff, is so pleased with his investment.

The one thing that really annoyed me, to the extent that I wasn't so disappointed to be outbid in the last 5 seconds of an eBay auction, was a comment on YouTube that mentions "no instructions in the box, but the company is working that..." Screw that. How long does it take to make a one-page cheat sheet?

Thanks for a enjoyable introduction to Bike Forums.

Joe Remi

I think the SF Craigslist seller's price is unethical gouging, and the fact they're still available supports this. But who knows, maybe he'll get lucky one day.

Jipe

The kickstarter bike wasn't a mature bike at all, everything had to be redesigned afterward.

Yes gluing is used, but this wasn't what was promised during the kickstarter campaign (I think that nobody would call a glued frame a titanium frame even if the tubes are made of titanium). I mentioned that as an example of the fact that at the kickstarter campaign time, he had no clue how he would build the bike. The subcontractor mentioned during the campaign wasn't a solution even for a much smaller number of bikes because this company wasn't able to build a very complex frame like the one of Helix.

The kickstarter campaign was a pure communication and marketing exercise with plenty of fake statements: best, lightest, smallest, safest... folding bike + the usual miraculous titanium material claims (yes titanium can be a very good material but not miraculous and not all titanium alloy are good and not all titanium bikes are good, a titanium bike isn't necessarily a good bike just because its made of titanium) + the very low, under estimated, price. All these fake claims of the kickstarter campaign participated to the extraordinary success of this campaign.
The only excuse is that such fake claims are quite usual for kickstarter campaigns and very little kickstarter projects fulfill all the promises of the campaign.

theerandyman

For what it's worth, I'm not the person who posted the "masterpiece" "review." I was quoting and responding to someone else's effusive review, presumably a happy owner, which now may have been deleted. I've never laid eyes on a Helix. I guess I'll need to get a handle on the BF quote feature. Whatever : )

Ozonation

The Helix is a fine bike. There have been a number of owner reviews already - some quite detailed - especially when the first ones produced shipped and finally got into the hands of the early backers. Some people still complain about the weight, the engineering, etc. Whatever. It's not perfect - nothing is - but if you backed the bike early on, you got an incredible bike for the price. Even at the current price, it's still a great bike for what it does have.

I'm not entirely sure what kind of reviews you're looking for. If by professional you mean someone at, say, Bicycling Magazine, then no, I don't think there has been such a review. However, given how dedicated most folding cyclists are, I think many of the real world reviews would suffice. I think there was a separate thread too dedicated to Helix owners.

RatonLaveur

Actually you're right about reviews. No need for a bike magazine to do that if you have real insights from daily users. I was wondering specifically about the details that could justify the investment. For example, how gritty does the rear hinge get without protection? How to protect it? Does the bike develop play? Is it comfortable for small or tall people? Etc...
I think with jipe we can agree he had a solid demonstrator that was unfinished (probably needed the funds for that) showing true bike engineering and design skills but he was not a great manufacturing engineer.
regarding the original bike, i was actually quite confused it looked simple enough if a bit crude. I would have thought that one was easier to manufacture than the newer version. So how much of that was peter spiraling into redesign, i wonder.



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Ozonation

I just realized... I had replied to a post you made under this thread back in about October/November regarding your Tern. I had just previously posted my impressions of the Helix and replied to several questions and criticisms about the Helix. Are you considering seriously getting the Helix still?

Jipe

Yes, indeed, the concept of Helix did exist when Peter started the campaign, for the rest, there was a lot to do and trying to build the bike at a price as close as possible with the announced price was a major challenge.

I also agree that there is a lack of review not of the bike technical characteristics but how it fit users (the videos I saw were mainly from Asiatic people that are smaller than occidental people and weight less) and how the bike behaves in several conditions on several roads surfaces.

Ozonation

Ha! I will assume your Asiatic statement is only meant as a generalization for discussion purposes. I am Asian, and I'm 5'11", 225 lbs. I'm a pretty active guy. I don't treat my bikes with kid gloves. I already wrote my first impressions last year so I'll repeat and augment them here.

It's very obvious that the Helix is not for the "I-want-an-inexpensive-folder-so-I-can-bike-around-the-block-or-cottage-for-15-minutes" casual rider: it is geared (ha ha) for the discriminating enthusiast who wants the "best" in a folding bike design and is unwilling to sacrifice much for a comparable ride. The Helix is not perfect, but for a folding bike, it's damn near close. I haven't fine tuned the ride to my preference but my major observations are:

• It's a stiff ride - great for handling, especially compared to the Brompton. I love my Brompton, but when I'm bearing down, I'm always wondering if I'm going to tear the handles off the stem. The Helix has no noticeable play compared to the Brompton.
• It rides fine on the road, and when I hit construction where the road was ripped up and basically just a giant stretch of gravel and sand, it rode as good as you could expect from a folding 24" bike: noticeably better than my Brompton, but not quite as good as my sturdy framed Hunqapillar with 700c Big Ben wheels. Hey, what do you expect?
• At 5'11", because I'm a little less upright on the Helix than when I ride my Brompton, I could use maybe another cm or two horizontal space. So, I might see if I can get a stem extension to move the handlebars forward a bit: an inch would do it. If you're much taller than me, the Helix is probably going to be one of your best bets, but there is probably a limit to how well it can accommodate a really tall rider. In the owner's forum, there are several taller riders and they seem quite happy so far. Contact Peter if you have a question about your height and bike fit.
• As for the tires, which some people seem so concerned about, yes, it could have benefitted from a few more millimetres clearance so that you could get slightly fatter tires for some more suspension. BUT the tires are not skinny by any stretch, and are fine for almost all riding conditions you would bring a folding bike to. Yes sure, my Hunqapillar with 55mm wide tires soak up bumps and torn up roads better... but no folding bike is going to compare to a full size bike unless you get one of those small folders with 20" fat 4" wide tires. And what's the tradeoff? Weight.
• Weight. So, a lot has been said about the increase in weight from the promised weight to the as delivered final design weight. The difference is about 2 lbs for my configuration (11 speed Alfine). Do I care? NO. Now, YMMV, but it is a non issue for me. It still weighs less than my Brompton configuration. Most people who are using a folder are probably using them in situations where they are commuting, traveling, etc. not situations where a premium on shaving every conceivable pound off is critical. I'm almost always carrying other stuff when I'm on bike: laptop, tablet, lunch, water bottle, thermos, electronics kit, camera, kids spare clothes, kids snacks, kids toys that they insist on bringing but will not play with, a big pack of wet wipes because travel pack sizes are never enough when the kids are with me. Am I belabouring the point? For me (and I suspect a number of others), by the time I get through my kit, the minor difference in bike weight is immaterial. You can lightweight the Helix even further but honestly, I rather have a couple extra pounds of sheer resistant, torque preventing, bearing capacity metal to know my bike won't collapse beneath me.

Sadly, I can't comment more because this whole pandemic situation has meant I just can't get biking much... at all... on any bike because of work and family.

Hope this helps RatonLaveur Cheers.

theerandyman

Thanks for making the time to (re)post the informative review- along with the amusing Asian stereotype jab... (suffice it to say that you're a bigger boy than this 5'8" Caucasian : ) Hope you're riding again soon.

Ozonation

When I was in graduate school and living in residence, I and three other students were standing in a circle and talking. All of us were Asian. I'm 5'11", 200 lbs. Another guy was 6'0", 200 lbs. The third was 6'2", about 170 lbs. The fourth guy was 5'4", maybe 130 lbs. Halfway through our conversation, the fourth guy looked up at the three of us, and said, "What the hell is wrong with you people?!!" LOL Kind of crushed that stereotype on that day.

theerandyman

My reason for being off the bike for the last 3 weeks is medical- a back injury- because otherwise cycling in Manhattan, sans cars, these days is glorious. I just had my first PT session with a Asian American who reminded me of a heftier Jeremy Lin... cheers!

Jipe

Yes, of course its average size, not individual size and I was thinking to the sizing of bikes like the Tyrell aimed at the Japanese/Asiatic market that are great bikes but unfortunately too small for most European male riders.

Sorry to say that, but 5'11" = about 1m80 is just average for European male men. Tall European men are 6'3" and (far) above !

If you compare with the Brompton, the M type is made for people like you (even the standard 520mm seatpost could fit for 1m80). There is the H type for taller people.

I do not understand your last statement: if for your size the Helix is already a little short and would be better with 1 or 2cm more, how could it fit for much taller rider let say 6"3"and more ?

From your review, I have the impression that your size is about the maximum for Helix because adding more than 2cm to the stem seems unrealistic ?

Ozonation

Your commentary about height got me thinking... so just how tall are people these days? This is from: https://www.medicinenet.com/height_men/article.htmWhile European and North American men are taller by a significant amount (say, 8 to 9 cm) on average... the difference is not so drastic. Most folding bikes should be able accommodate riders between an average height of 5'7" and 5'11"... at least according to their marketing claims - doesn't Brompton claim a fit range of 4'7" to 6'8" depending on the seat post you get? https://brompton.zendesk.com/hc/en-u...-rider-height-. Of course, these are height averages, so just as there are tall Asians, there are short Europeans. So, if you are especially tall or especially short, you might be running up against either extreme in terms of fit.

As for my sizing... good catch... I didn't phrase that too well.. what I meant to say is is that if you're a tall individual, the Helix is probably one of your better choices for a folding bike because of its larger and stiffer frame, but if you're much taller than me, it could still be a challenge. For me, what I meant regarding the 1 to 2 cm accommodation isn't the vertical height of the stem itself, but the stem extension (protruding an angle outwards in front of the stem) for the handlebar. Mine feels just a tad too short and maybe just shy too low for me to extend my arms to the exact position I want - it's okay, but maybe I want just a bit more. A slightly longer extension that is at a slight higher angle and just a couple centimetres longer should do it. This should not affect the fold because the stem extension protrudes outward from the fold position. This isn't the first bike that I feel this way about either. For lack of better terms, the "cockpit" seems a tad compressed. It could be that for me, my torso is a bit longer, so my height is distributed through my legs and torso, not less through just my legs.

My seat post height is more than adequate. On my Brompton, however, I got the extended seat post.

And back to height... I think it depends on where you go in Europe! I visit there for business periodically, and while I'm not the tallest, I'm tall enough. At least to take pictures overtop of most crowds. LOL

2_i 

If you applied a cut-off of 20y of age or something, the difference presumably would have still shrunk significantly.

Jipe

Thanks for the table.

It indeed show that in Japan and China, people on average are about 9cm smaller.

When I was talking of bike size, its indeed what you call extension or what is also called reach.

This is the dimension that is too small on several Tyrell models that are made for the Japanese market.

If you look at the Brompton geometry, you will see that not only the stem height is different but also the stem angle making that S and H type have a longer reach than the M type. The saddle pentaclip allows also to put the saddle a lot to the rear to even increase the saddle handlebar distance (by putting the pentaclip behind the seatpost).

The Birdy (designed in Germany for German people) has not only an height adjustable stem but also two types of stem with two different stem angles and the so called sport stem provides a longer reach.

If it doesn't cause folding problems, having stems with different angles for Helix like for the Birdy would make it fit for taller people.

RatonLaveur

To ozonation thanks for the added information. Yes I'm very much still considering a helix, but the rather steep retail price (i was expecting 2-2.5k, not 3-3.7) and the fact that my Tern node still gives satisfaction is makes it a difficult choice. Of note is the absence of clear mudguard solution at the moment, the node d8 keeps me dry and clean even on muddy roads. That's an important commuting benefit.

​​​​​​The discussion about the size worries me too, at 198cm I consider myself rather tall. I got use to the Tern even for extended periods (full day cycling trips).

Why would I switch from the Tern? At 15kg it's rather heavy to carry but its mostly the folded size is just too big. It will fit a small car and make it slightly easier to board a train without going to the bike section. But that's about it. Can't take it in a restaurant/inside work or in the house. So it stays locked outside. Even in the car situation it's not an easy choice of just fold it toss it and go.

So yeah the helix is very appealing. But I'm still struggling for the reasons invoked.

Ozonation

Well, if the Helix might not work - or at least, you're uncertain - what about a Brompton? It would be about the price you want, and it would be a bit lighter than the Tern. If you're after the compactness of the fold, it's hard to beat the Brompton it probably has the smallest fold of them all. And it's a bit more flexible in terms of fit.

Jipe

A Birdy is also a solution, it fits for tall people, it is now very close in folded size to a Brompton, it rides better and has a much better comfort, it weight less than a Brompton with a similar equipment. There are also plenty of accessories for it.

The drawback wrt. the Brompton is slightly bigger folded size, its not as easy to fold as the Brompton, it has no front front bag carrying block (but it has low riders, a good folding rear rack and its possible to mount a Brompton block with some drilling).

RatonLaveur

Thanks for the suggestions, i have considered both options but i use my folder as my main bike too. I have used it on long tours, up and down mountains (roads not trails obviously). My daily commute leads me to slopes that peak easily at 50kmh, which is perfectly fine on the 24" wheels...on smaller...fat chance. Also i have already replaced the hinge pins of my Tern once (one sheared during transfer not during riding), so my next bike will definitely not have a weak point inbuilt in the frame. Here you see all of it. I don't see anything better than helix. But I'm still pining on the decision. Expensive, potentially a bit too short, durability of the helical hinges...all combine to make me uncertain.

Ozonation

Hmmm... I see you are in a bit of a bind if this is to be your daily and only bike. I asked around how any tall - very tall - Helix riders found the fit of the bike for them, but no replies. I seem to recall a thread with one owner who is 6'2" saying he thought the helix is great, but if you're 198 cm, then that's still a 4 inch difference.

Sounds like you're tough on your bike and expect a lot (I would too), so I can see how a non-folding main frame would be desirable. The Birdy looks good too, but of course, it doesn't offer 24" wheels. I would think its 18" wheels are fine... I've done pretty much everything on my Brompton with its 16" wheels, but yes, it's not so great on rougher roads. And I don't have hills here to reach 50 km/h! Where are you located?

I think I will try some alternate stem extensions, etc. I did put better handle grips on mine, and that *really* helps with the comfort. Like the Brompton, the Helix shipped with these semi-awful foam grips: I don't even know what's the point.

Not sure what else I can comment on... my first impressions - and the comments from one of my colleagues who is a mountain biker, race marshal, and our lead technologist - of the Helix is that it is finely engineered and made bike: I'm thinking durability is not going to be an issue under most cases. Given your height, fit is probably the main concern. Perhaps send a note to Peter and see what he says.

In terms of the fold, since that is still a major consideration for you, I'm attaching some photos of the Helix and the Brompton side by side. Keep in mind that the Helix can be SMALLER than it is in the photos... just because I was lazy, I kept the seat post up so that I didn't have to remove my cheap, add on seat post rack that I got for $25 Cdn. It actually isn't bad: when I ride I loosen it up, swivel to the back, and retighten. When I fold and want to roll, I just swivel around to above the fold. You roll the Helix around with the seat post extended anyways. So, the Helix is not quite as compact as the Brompton, but for a bike with 24 inch wheels... it is really compact, and honestly not much larger than the Brompton folded, especially when compared to other folders with 20" to 24" wheels.


Cheap add on seat post rack, clamp on bottle holder, and handlebar bag work pretty well until Helix dedicated accessories are available.

I left the seat post up (just because I'm lazy) and the seat rack on, so it distorts the size comparison a bit. You might argue that any seat rack would be integral to the bike size so leaving it on is a better comparison, but keep in mind that anything you attach to the Brompton's rack has to be removed when you fold, so the fold parameters with or without racks for both are probably comparable in most respects.

This might be a better comparison. If you push the Helix seat all the way down, it will be at about the same level as the Brompton's in the folded configuration. The overall fold volume is larger than the Brompton, but not by too much. And yes! That black apparatus is a stay mounted kickstand for my Brompton. I just found a short piece of plastic to replace the metal stand itself. It works pretty well if I'm riding and don't want to fold the bike up to stand and just want the bike to quickly stay standing - but it doesn't work if your front bag is too heavy.

Again, if the seat was down, and if I didn't have my rack on, the overhead view of the two folds would be comparable, with the Helix being a bit larger obviously, but not by a dramatic amount.

Jipe

Just for remembrance, its possible to mount 20" ETRTO 406 wheels on any Birdy and there is now a Pacific Cycles Birdy model equipped from factory with 20" wheels,

The 18" ETRTO 355 wheel size (so only 6mm bigger than the 16" ETRTO 349 of the Brompton wheels) is now a drawback due to the limited choice of tires compared to the current wider choice of tires in ETRTO 349 (this is a relatively recent evolution, this wider choice of tires in ETRTO 349 didn't exist a couple of years ago).

Having all types of small wheels bikes and also big wheels bikes, for a road use, I am absolutely not convinced by the advantages of big wheels and on a folder, bigger wheels is definitely a drawback for the fold and for the weight.

The folding frame of the Brompton should not be a reason to reject it: the hinge system of the MK IV Brompton is fully reliable and last very long. Replacement of the hinge pin is almost never needed.

Ozonation

There have been a number of instances where I found smaller wheels to be an advantage, especially when navigating crowds (well, pre-pandemic). And for the most part, they're just fine, barring rough rides or steep declines/inclines. Of course, the premise of the Helix is that you can get a much larger wheel size into a comparably smaller form factor fold and corresponding weight. For the most part, it succeeds - it is larger than my Brompton, to be sure, but not dramatically so, and weight wise, about the same given my Brompton configuration. However, folding bikes are an exercise in compromise and tradeoffs. The Helix is expensive, is unique, and might not do it for everyone. I'll leave it to RatonLaveur and others to decide what their tradeoffs are.

I agree that the Brompton hinge is reliable. I've never had an issue, and I've hauled this thing on flights, banged around in its case, towed a heavy kid trailer, and ridden it up a hill that it probably wasn't meant to go up. Arguably a solid, "unbroken frame" is stronger inherently, but the Bromption is certainly more than up to the task, extreme cases notwithstanding.

univega.duder

@theerandyman Is it possible you could post a photo of your Helix with the Velogic dynamo? I'm curious where on the bike installed it? Did you get both front and rear Son lights? I've been enjoying my Helix but am keen to install the Velogic dynamo. Cheers!