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An e-bike is going to happen eventually

Old 07-16-19, 04:01 PM
  #251  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
No particular amount of force is read nor required for this triggering to occur
Unless you have a torque sensor instead of a cadence sensor. My BionX assist is a rear hub drive. Its torque sensor inside the hub senses the amount of tug on the chain. Pedaling speed has nothing to do with it. If I put it in a big gear and push hard the torque sensor tells the motor to push hard and I get a big return for the increased effort. If I shift into a lower gear and spin faster and more lightly the motor backs off .

I do agree with BigAura on one point. There is really no difference between a thumb throttle and a pedal assist (speaking for my torque sensor, not sure how fast a cadence sensor responds).* If I want to take off fast with the flow of traffic when the light changes I just put it in level 4 assist and step on the gas pedal. The bike shoots ahead (as if it had a motor) the same as it would by pressing a thumb switch. Two different switch designs that do the same thing.

All of my riding now is on paved roads or gravel roads open to motor vehicles so I'm not going to join the above debate. I don't like riding on MUPs anyway. The nearest one is 22 miles away and doesn't go anywhere.

Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Please explain what you mean as relates to the requirement that Class 1 eBikes must have a torque sensor.
Who said that??? An ebike has either a cadence sensor or a torque sensor, not both. Most have a cadence sensor because they're cheaper.

Last edited by BobG; 07-17-19 at 03:39 AM. Reason: * clarified for linberl
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Old 07-16-19, 04:14 PM
  #252  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
That is not true. Bicycles are not only not considered to be motor vehicles, they are not even considered to be vehicles.

Bicycles are exclusively human powered: Law section

Bicycles are not "vehicles": https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...0.&lawCode=VEH

It's a common misconception though, as we ARE subject to the most of the same laws and have the same responsibilities.

E-bikes are defined as "electric bicycles" (and not bicycles, as they are not exclusively human powered) and fall into 3 classes: Law section
ARTICLE 4. Operation of Bicycles [21200 - 21213]
( Article 4 added by Stats. 1963, Ch. 479. )

21200.
(a) (1) A person riding a bicycle or operating a pedicab upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division, including, but not limited to, provisions concerning driving under the influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs, and by Division 10 (commencing with Section 20000), Section 27400, Division 16.7 (commencing with Section 39000), Division 17 (commencing with Section 40000.1), and Division 18 (commencing with Section 42000), except those provisions which by their very nature can have no application.

(2) A person operating a bicycle on a Class I bikeway, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 890.4 of the Streets and Highways Code, has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle pursuant to Section 20001, except those provisions which by their very nature can have no application.
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Old 07-16-19, 04:30 PM
  #253  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
ARTICLE 4. Operation of Bicycles [21200 - 21213]
( Article 4 added by Stats. 1963, Ch. 479. )

21200.
(a) (1) A person riding a bicycle or operating a pedicab upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division, including, but not limited to, provisions concerning driving under the influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs, and by Division 10 (commencing with Section 20000), Section 27400, Division 16.7 (commencing with Section 39000), Division 17 (commencing with Section 40000.1), and Division 18 (commencing with Section 42000), except those provisions which by their very nature can have no application.

(2) A person operating a bicycle on a Class I bikeway, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 890.4 of the Streets and Highways Code, has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle pursuant to Section 20001, except those provisions which by their very nature can have no application.
Yep. As I indicated, we have all the rights and responsibilities. But a bicycle is not a vehicle under the CVC. It is important, as there are laws in the CVC that do not apply to bicycles to because they are not vehicles.

This one for example:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...tionNum=21656.

As a bicycle is not a vehicle, we are not required to pull over with 5 more more vehicles are behind us.
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Old 07-16-19, 05:03 PM
  #254  
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Originally Posted by fuzzy chainring View Post
Fun physics fact: You do apply force when you ride your bike without a motor.
No more than when I ride with a motor, same cadence, same distance.
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Old 07-16-19, 05:04 PM
  #255  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
Yep. As I indicated, we have all the rights and responsibilities. But a bicycle is not a vehicle under the CVC. It is important, as there are laws in the CVC that do not apply to bicycles to because they are not vehicles.

This one for example:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...tionNum=21656.

As a bicycle is not a vehicle, we are not required to pull over with 5 more more vehicles are behind us.
Semantics. Ride on the road and tell a cop you aren't subject to the vehicle code, lol. Where you ride matters more than what you ride.
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Old 07-16-19, 05:05 PM
  #256  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Thanks for your input and conformation of my main point.




I was explaining the common simple cadence sensor in refrence to linberl's post. I was just pointing to linberl's torque sensor comments as a red-herring.
How is a torque sensor a red herring? Most quality e-bikes have them.
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Old 07-16-19, 05:07 PM
  #257  
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Originally Posted by BobG View Post
Unless you have a torque sensor instead of a cadence sensor. My BionX assist is a rear hub drive. Its torque sensor inside the hub senses the amount of tug on the chain. Pedaling speed has nothing to do with it. If I put it in a big gear and push hard the torque sensor tells the motor to push hard and I get a big return for the increased effort. If I shift into a lower gear and spin faster and more lightly the motor backs off .

I do agree with BigAura on one point. There is really no difference between a thumb throttle and a pedal assist. If I want to take off fast with the flow of traffic when the light changes I just put it in level 4 assist and step on the gas pedal. The bike shoots ahead (as if it had a motor) the same as it would by pressing a thumb switch. Two different switch designs that do the same thing.

All of my riding now is on paved roads or gravel roads open to motor vehicles so I'm not going to join the above debate. I don't like riding on MUPs anyway. The nearest one is 22 miles away and doesn't go anywhere.



Who said that??? An ebike has either a cadence sensor or a torque sensor, not both. Most have a cadence sensor because they're cheaper.
My system does not even supply power until I have completed a couple revolutions of the pedal. It also has a throttle (which I don't use unless I'm about to be hit by a car) and it kicks in instantly. They are not the same.
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Old 07-16-19, 05:21 PM
  #258  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
How is a torque sensor a red herring? Most quality e-bikes have them.
Yep, because I was explaining a cadence sensor. Which is used on the majority of eBikes.Then you decided to say:

Originally Posted by linberl View Post
Torque sensors actually measure input force.
Have you ever actually ridden an electric bike with a torque sensor? If not, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 07-16-19, 05:31 PM
  #259  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Yep, because I was explaining a cadence sensor. Which is used on the majority of eBikes.Then you decided to say:
No, you specifically said "how the pedal assist switching system" works. You did not say "one type". It was at best a massive generalization. And torque sensors are on the higher end e-bikes and will show up on cheaper ones as the tech trickles down, as it always does. S0 - your objection to ebikes is about "effort"? Then banning torque sensor bikes would not be okay with you, right? Imo no one has any business policing someone else's effort on a bike - that's their choice and their business. The only justification is if they create a hazard and in that case, just like with autos, the appropriate response is a ticket. It's beautiful out right now so I am off to ride - and whether I take along my motor or not affects no one but me.
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Old 07-16-19, 05:36 PM
  #260  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
Semantics. Ride on the road and tell a cop you aren't subject to the vehicle code, lol. Where you ride matters more than what you ride.
C'mon now. This is law we are talking about ... words count.

I didn't say bicycles are not subject to the vehicle code. They are. They are just not "vehicles" under the CVC and that IS important for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with e-bikes ... like the example I posted.
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Old 07-16-19, 08:09 PM
  #261  
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Your concern about access is.... you don't want ebikes to access your area. That's how I read it.
BigAura has the same vib. He doesn't like em.
Class one ebikes ride just like regular bikes.
There are many more people on push bikes that are even more annoying. Depends on the rider...... it's not the bike.
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Old 07-16-19, 08:09 PM
  #262  
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Originally Posted by fuzzy chainring View Post
So when you're about to be hit by a car you install your optional throttle. That makes perfect sense.

"It also has a throttle (which I don't use unless I'm about to be hit by a car) and it kicks in instantly"
You just like to try to create arguments, don't you? IF the throttle is on the bike (which it only is for use on the roadways, not on the pathways) then I can use it to clear an intersection if there is a problem. Just like I don't wear my rear view mirror when riding MUPS but never forget it on the streets...sheesh. My bike is also my "car" and I have chosen different devices for running errands on the street compared to when I ride on MUPS for exercise.
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Old 07-16-19, 08:39 PM
  #263  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
That is not true. Bicycles are not only not considered to be motor vehicles, they are not even considered to be vehicles.

Bicycles are exclusively human powered: Law section

Bicycles are not "vehicles": https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...0.&lawCode=VEH

It's a common misconception though, as we ARE subject to the most of the same laws and have the same responsibilities.

E-bikes are defined as "electric bicycles" (and not bicycles, as they are not exclusively human powered) and fall into 3 classes: Law section
A semantic argument which does not alter the rule of law when riding on the road.
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Old 07-16-19, 09:17 PM
  #264  
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A lot of "trail-nanny's" here.
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Old 07-16-19, 09:26 PM
  #265  
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Originally Posted by fuzzy chainring View Post
Nope, you got that wrong too. My concern about access is land managers lumping electric motor bicycles in with normal bikes when making access decisions - because electric motor bicycles can be indistinguishable from real bikes.

I think NEMBA has taken a balanced approach:

https://www.nemba.org/news/dealers-g...mountain-bikes



Except for that motor. Having ridden a few, they don't ride just like regular bikes.
So a "few" makes you an expert? Have you ridden a Stromer? Van Moof? Or a small friction drive? Not all ebikes rides the same, not even close. You're making these grand generalizations on a miniscule sampling, lol. One simply can't argue with "logic" like that. Bye.
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Old 07-16-19, 10:18 PM
  #266  
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Originally Posted by fuzzy chainring View Post
I never claimed to be an expert nor did I make a any grand generalization. Thatís just you making things up. Again.

My experience is that the electric motor bicycles that I rode did not ride like normal bikes. They made challenging climbs very easy while being porky and not as agile, nor as fun, on the descents.

Again, thatís not a generalization, just specific observations based on my real world experience.
Hardly making things up....you did not qualify your comment to just those bikes you rode. Sounds like you rode some really crappy ebikes. whatever.
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Old 07-16-19, 10:43 PM
  #267  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
A semantic argument which does not alter the rule of law when riding on the road.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

The CVC is a statute. Its words are not semantics ... they define what the rule of law is when riding on the road.
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Old 07-17-19, 02:17 AM
  #268  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

The CVC is a statute. Its words are not semantics ... they define what the rule of law is when riding on the road.
What I mean is even if you determine a cyclist is not defined as vehicle or consider him a slow boat to China it does not change his rights and privileges and responsibilities.
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Old 07-17-19, 09:07 AM
  #269  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
What I mean is even if you determine a cyclist is not defined as vehicle or consider him a slow boat to China it does not change his rights and privileges and responsibilities.
But it DOES. In my example, someone piloting a vehicle must pull over if there are more than 5 vehicles behind them and those vehicles are unable to pass. The law does not require a bicycle to do that, because they are not legally defined as vehicles. There are other places in the vehicle code where the distinction is important.
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Old 07-17-19, 09:11 PM
  #270  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
But it DOES. In my example, someone piloting a vehicle must pull over if there are more than 5 vehicles behind them and those vehicles are unable to pass. The law does not require a bicycle to do that, because they are not legally defined as vehicles. There are other places in the vehicle code where the distinction is important.
You have succeed in teaching me a new lesson I had not considered. Let me guess, you carry a copy of this code around on your rides or do you already have it committed to memory?
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Old 07-18-19, 12:09 AM
  #271  
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This thread is going to be a HILARIOUS read five years on.


There are only two sectors of bicycling with increasing sales: e-bikes and gravel, and e-bike sales are increasing at a far faster rate. Sales are declining in every other segment. E-bikes will enable bicycle companies to be able to support continued R&D in the other segments even though sales will continue to drop, probably sharply once e-bikes become synonymous with bicycles, and that will be the case in as few as 5 years, maybe 10 at the most.


It's just a waste of breath arguing about semantics, it won't make any difference in the adoption of e-bikes or in the decline of road and mtb sales for that matter.
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Old 07-18-19, 07:11 AM
  #272  
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Go out and ride your ride.... don't be concerned about what others are riding.
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Old 07-19-19, 09:18 AM
  #273  
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In my experience and locale, legality is irrelevant. Motor bikes (electric and gas) with pedals are used on bike paths and in bike lanes and when I cornered a couple of law enforcement officers about that (one of whom is a cyclist), they informed me that they were given no directives, aside from stop sign infractions, to enforce the relevant laws. What is relevant is that with no experience riding at high speed, someone can use their Master Card and leave the store on a motorbike, get on a bike path, push a lever, and speed amongst, walkers, kids on training wheels, etc.
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Old 07-19-19, 09:27 AM
  #274  
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Originally Posted by Classtime View Post
In my experience and locale, legality is irrelevant. Motor bikes (electric and gas) with pedals are used on bike paths and in bike lanes and when I cornered a couple of law enforcement officers about that (one of whom is a cyclist), they informed me that they were given no directives, aside from stop sign infractions, to enforce the relevant laws. What is relevant is that with no experience riding at high speed, someone can use their Master Card and leave the store on a motorbike, get on a bike path, push a lever, and speed amongst, walkers, kids on training wheels, etc.
In California, it is illegal to ride a motorized bike that can go faster than 20mph on a pathway. Most fit riders can go that fast without motors so that is a non-issue. As to experience, I'd be interested to see your study which shows that people who have no riding experience go out and purchase ebikes (which are not cheap) and then speed on pathways and cause more accidents than riders on regular bikes. It's a lot of fear-mongering. I suggest the bigger concern is people using bikeshare bikes, motorized or not, as they ARE inexperienced and also don't have a clue about rules of the road. If you plunk down $ and own a bike, you are a lot more likely to be careful.
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Old 07-19-19, 10:44 AM
  #275  
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Alright folks-- cb400bill has been through this thread, Stan has been through this thread, and now I've been through it. That's it. No more. No more quasi-legalese, no more memery, no more nonsense.

It's been moved to e-Bikes, and it won't be cleaned up again. If any more bickering be certain parties occurs in the future (and you absolutely know who you all are) or another report comes in on this one, it's just gonna get locked and sent to oblivion.

Small apology to a handful of posters, some posts got obliterated in the purge that were not in and of themselves offenders, but either quotes or vaguely OT.

To be as absolutely clear as possible: this thread now resides in e-Bikes. If you have ANY issue with e-Bikes, go complain about it elsewhere.
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