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Masters Worlds 2018

Old 10-14-18, 08:38 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
You're projecting a perceived advantage onto the feelings of others. You think it's unfair so you're assuming that others also all assume it's unfair. It's even in the wording you used, "bump off of the podium", as if she doesn't belong.

Also, with regard to the testosterone levels, you're also assuming that SF and other trans-athletes are out there riding around with 17 year old male levels of test, which is DEFINITELY not the case.

What about my other points made above? Any thoughts on those?
@spartanKid, Have you seen her race? I have. Have you met her? I have. Here we are (I'm wearing all black) as I push her off for a sprint round at DLV.



I wasn't at Masters worlds. But, I see in the results that Sarah Fader (USA) qualified 1st for sprints (setting the WR) with 11.889". McKinnon 2nd with 11.920" (the short-lived would-be world record mentioned earlier in this thread). I find it curious that Fader didn't race the tournament and I'd like to know why. Was she injured? SF?

Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
You literally just said "Ah...that explains everything". As if being trans explains all her accomplishments.
"Ah...that explains everything" is not an insult. If a new rider were squatting 400lbs and dropping 10.5" times a few months into racing we'd be perplexed. Then if we found out that that person were an elite Track & Field sprinter or NCAA running back, we'd say, "Ah...that explains everything." Understanding something is not insulting something. Maybe you just read it that way.

Last edited by carleton; 10-14-18 at 08:40 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-14-18, 08:54 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
What about my other points made above? Any thoughts on those?
It's not noteworthy that people have different opinions about transathletes in sport. You bringing up the USA Today interview with Bearden is a solid strawman at best.

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Have you seen her race? I have. Have you met her? I have.
Yes and yes. Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Just because you have met someone who is trans doesn't make you an ally, nor does it validate your feelings of being "duped".

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
"Ah...that explains everything" is not an insult. If a new rider were squatting 400lbs and dropping 10.5" times a few months into racing we'd be perplexed. Then if we found out that that person were an elite Track & Field sprinter or NCAA running back, we'd say, "Ah...that explains everything." Understanding something is not insulting something. Maybe you just read it that way.
Except you literally proved my point with this example. If a former elite T&F sprinter/NCAA running back was fast on a bike, you're attributing all of their early success to their past/history. Here, you're attributing all of SF's success to their trans-ness. You're dismissing all of the work it takes to not only ride fast times, but also *RACE*. Just because you can ride a fast 200 does not mean you can actually race match sprints, something you surely understand.
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Old 10-14-18, 08:57 PM
  #78  
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Bearden lied, by the way. I wasn't dismissed from the team: half of us left over the dispute and formed Foxy Moxy. But USA Today just printed her lies without checking.
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Old 10-14-18, 09:50 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
It's not noteworthy that people have different opinions about transathletes in sport. You bringing up the USA Today interview with Bearden is a solid strawman at best.
lolwut? The interview was with Bearden AND SF regarding this topic in particular and SF in particular. How MF'ing more relevant can an article be??

Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Bearden lied, by the way. I wasn't dismissed from the team: half of us left over the dispute and formed Foxy Moxy. But USA Today just printed her lies without checking.
Did you contact Scott Gleeson and Erik Brady of USA TODAY and attempt to correct the story?

Did the USA Today article misquote and attribute lies to you, too? If so, which ones? Or were the quotes attributed to you true?

Did you use this sport as grounds for a social experiment?

Last edited by carleton; 10-14-18 at 09:52 PM. Reason: "contact" not "confront" (autocorrect error)
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Old 10-14-18, 09:54 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
lolwut? The interview was with Bearden AND SF regarding this topic in particular and SF in particular. How MF'ing more relevant can an article be??
Yeah, and the line you used was about trans athletes competing with "unlimited natural levels of testosterone" which, as SF said, you have no evidence of. So like I said, it's a strawman.
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Old 10-14-18, 10:00 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
Yeah, and the line you used was about trans athletes competing with "unlimited natural levels of testosterone" which, as SF said, you have no evidence of. So like I said, it's a strawman.
Do not attribute Bearden's words to me.

My point is that they disagreed. Bearden is waaaaaaay more qualified to speak on this subject than I am. And she's probably waaaaay more familiar with SF than proably anyone on this board. They obviously had deep differences of opinion while probably having more in common than SF and I.

If you have objection to what Bearden knows and/or believes, then reach out to her. Don't shoot the messenger.
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Old 10-14-18, 10:17 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Do not attribute Bearden's words to me.

My point is that they disagreed. Bearden is waaaaaaay more qualified to speak on this subject than I am. And she's probably waaaaay more familiar with SF than proably anyone on this board. They obviously had deep differences of opinion while probably having more in common than SF and I.

If you have objection to what Bearden knows and/or believes, then reach out to her. Don't shoot the messenger.
But you didn't just say that "SF and Bearden disagreed", you used a direct quote that talks about trans women competing with unlimited levels of testosterone and included in a post that also dismissed SF's success to her trans status. You didn't outright say that SF's success is due to higher testosterone than the average ciswoman, but you definitely, perhaps unintentionally, implied it when you put these statements in this discussion - in the same post even. This may have been unintentional, but note that this is a technique often used by propagandists, conspiracy theorists, and people who are trying to make a tenuous logical jump between two things that aren't necessarily true or connected.

So, from there, it would seem to me that by bringing up the disagreement with Bearden you either:

1) Don't think that SF should be competing with women

OR

2) You're intentionally playing devil's advocate, which if you are, you should indicate you are doing so, because when you do not, you come across as very aggressive and antagonizing when you might not intend to be.

Last edited by spartanKid; 10-14-18 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Ambiguous pronouns
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Old 10-14-18, 10:43 PM
  #83  
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@spartanKid

I am right here, actively engaging with you and replying to you. You could either:

- Speculate as to what I am doing and why. Or
- Ask me what I am doing and why.

It's that simple.

I may be a "Jerk". But, I will engage and discuss.

This is a loaded topic. I agree that one's sexual and gender preferences should be TOTALLY private. That is not the case with SF. She has given international interviews and presentations on the topic. She's not, "I just wanna race my bike and have fun...", she's using the sport as a platform. This, ab-so-lutely opens her up to being a topic of discussion.

Please don't make me out to be an insensitive "bro" about this. I am quite sympathetic and I advocate (and vote) for many issues that overlap here. My interest is only about sport and what happens on the track. Period.

This is not a black and white issue. Let us not make it one with the idea that, "If you are not 100% with me, then you are 100% against me."

Regarding SF, I fully expected a literal scholar (Ph.D. and college professor) to actually entertain and answer questions and engage. Yet, I got called a "Jerk" and "antagonistic". BTW, I'm "antagonistic" not because SF is trans or that she races against women.

Last edited by BillyD; 10-23-18 at 09:47 AM. Reason: Unnecessary
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Old 10-14-18, 10:53 PM
  #84  
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Oh boy.
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Old 10-14-18, 11:01 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post

I am right here, actively engaging with you and replying to you. You could either:

- Speculate as to what I am doing and why. Or
- Ask me what I am doing and why.

It's that simple.

I may be a "Jerk". But, I will engage and discuss.
And I'm trying to explain how your words/actions can be interpreted in ways you may not anticipate.

Originally Posted by carleton View Post

This is a loaded topic. I agree that one's sexual and gender preferences should be TOTALLY private.
I'm not sure this is as supportive a statement as you think it is. This sounds like "Don't ask, don't tell".
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
That is not the case with SF. She has given international interviews and presentations on the topic. She's not, "I just wanna race my bike and have fun...", she's using the sport as a platform. This, ab-so-lutely opens her up to being a topic of discussion.
And yet she asked people here not to re-hash it, but here we are...

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Please don't make me out to be an insensitive "bro" about this. I am quite sympathetic and I advocate (and vote) for many issues that overlap here. My interest is only about sport and what happens on the track. Period.
No one was questioning who you vote for or what your political views are. Are you trying to build the case that you're an ally?

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
This is not a black and white issue. Let us not make it one with the idea that, "If you are not 100% with me, then you are 100% against me."
Sure, but again, being antagonistic suggests you're against SF.

Originally Posted by carleton View Post

Regarding SF, I fully expected a literal scholar (Ph.D. and college professor) to actually entertain and answer questions and engage. Yet, I got called a "Jerk" and "antagonistic". BTW, I'm "antagonistic" not because SF is trans or that she races against women.
Perhaps it's because this is a discussion she has to have every day, all the time. Just because something is your field of study, or a personal passion, or even a hobby, doesn't mean you have to or want to or need to discuss it all the time. Activists don't "owe" anyone a discussion on demand.

Think of it this way, say, as a professor and Ph.D. researcher in sports science, you spend literally your whole work day doing/thinking about how to train athletes and how to make athletes better. When you're not at work, you just wanna ride and race your bike. When you're at the track racing your bike or training, you don't "owe" anyone there a discussion about the latest training tips or training protocols, regardless of how active you are in that field in your day job.

Last edited by BillyD; 10-23-18 at 09:51 AM. Reason: Cleanup
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Old 10-14-18, 11:28 PM
  #86  
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For those who weren’t able to make it to Carson and are interested in a few pictures showing what it was like to be there, from an admittedly Colby Pearce-centric point of view:

Fifty Point One Racing
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Old 10-14-18, 11:41 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
Perhaps it's because this is a discussion she has to have every day, all the time. Just because something is your field of study, or a personal passion, or even a hobby, doesn't mean you have to or want to or need to discuss it all the time. Activists don't "owe" anyone a discussion on demand.

Think of it this way, say, as a professor and Ph.D. researcher in sports science, you spend literally your whole work day doing/thinking about how to train athletes and how to make athletes better. When you're not at work, you just wanna ride and race your bike. When you're at the track racing your bike or training, you don't "owe" anyone there a discussion about the latest training tips or training protocols, regardless of how active you are in that field in your day job.
No...she was like this for several months before I knew that she was trans. Maybe others did, but I certainly didn't. She kicked the BF door down saying how she was hot **** when she came to the forum. Some favorites are:

- How she's CAT1 on the road and should automatically be CAT2 on the track...after racing track for a month.
- How she intends to take Monique Sullivan's spot on the CAN Olmpic team.
- AlllllLLlll of her sponsors
- ALLLLlllllLL of her coaches

@Spartainkid, it seems that you joined BF a month after SF did. I wonder...do you know SF outside of BF? Before joining BF? Are you a researcher with her?

Please answer

Last edited by StanSeven; 10-23-18 at 12:27 PM. Reason: Removed personal insult comment
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Old 10-14-18, 11:47 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
No...she was like this for several months before I knew that she was trans. Maybe others did, but I certainly didn't. She kicked the BF door down saying how she was hot **** when she came to the forum. Some favorites are:

- How she's CAT1 on the road and should automatically be CAT2 on the track...after racing track for a month.
- How she intends to take Monique Sullivan's spot on the CAN Olmpic team.
- AlllllLLlll of her sponsors
- ALLLLlllllLL of her coaches

@Spartainkid, it seems that you joined BF a month after SF did. I wonder...do you know SF outside of BF? Before joining BF? Are you a researcher with her?

Please answer
I legit didn't go back and read dozens of posts, or look at SF's posts.

I have met SF outside of the forums, as I mentioned before, at track races in here in the US.
Are you insinuating I'm some sort of collaborator with SF to go fight the meanies on bikeforums?! Lol I am not

And lol, no, I'm not a researcher with her, or in any field related.

I'm flattered you think I'm some sort of hotshot college professor though!

Last edited by StanSeven; 10-23-18 at 12:30 PM. Reason: removed quoted editing from previous post
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Old 10-15-18, 12:08 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
I legit didn't go back and read dozens of posts, or look at SF's posts.

I have met SF outside of the forums, as I mentioned before, at track races in here in the US.
Are you insinuating I'm some sort of collaborator with SF to go fight the meanies on bikeforums?! Lol I am not

And lol, no, I'm not a researcher with her, or in any field related.

I'm flattered you think I'm some sort of hotshot college professor though!
lol yeah...those are just some highlights. There are many, many others.

I've been on bikeforms 13 years. I was a moderator for several years and resigned because I didn't have time to do what's required. I've seen several come and go. Even some move on to the afterlife.

This sub-forum and "The 33" is anonymous...but not really. It's a very, very small community in the world. Even though we may not know each other's name, location, occupation, etc... we get to know A LOT about each other here based on the words that we type into the screen.

I will 100% own-up to being a "jerk", "know it all", "a$$", and lots of other mild derogatory adjectives. But, I also pride myself on being helpful and fair.

By the way, I don't think being a college professor or PhD is a hotshot kind of thing. They are just people no better than anyone else.

Yes, I did wonder if you were a collaborator with her (teammate, co-worker, etc...) as your join dates are suspiciously close and you are vehemently defending a woman that is very capable of defending herself (and oddly very silent...it's late, though). She did make an appearance, but it was merely to:
- Declare herself an "internationally recognized expert."
- Declare the former team leader that dismissed her is a liar.
- Declare that USA Today "just printed her lies without checking."
- Declare me a "Jerk".


Last edited by StanSeven; 10-23-18 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Removed insult
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Old 10-15-18, 07:43 AM
  #90  
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Carleton, you stated your thoughts. That’s enough. Please leave this thread.

Admin note: I cleaned up the thread to get the thread back on topic.
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Old 10-15-18, 10:02 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by sarals View Post
The other side of that coin is: Bonnie Woodbury and Barbara Gicquel, 75 and 78 respectively, trained all year - since Worlds 2017 - to set a WR in the TS for women 75+. Bonnie had a very bad year, she was injured pretty badly in a crash, and then a little over a month ago had to deal with a serious illness. She rode at Worlds JUST to set the record. Which the UCI no longer recognizes. "Oh, so sorry, we stopped doing that in June 2018". Talk about a slap to the face....
That's BS. All it takes on the part of the UCI is some data entry. For an athlete, that lottle bit of effort goes a long way into recognizing and validating their effort and achievements.
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Old 10-15-18, 10:15 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
That's BS. All it takes on the part of the UCI is some data entry. For an athlete, that lottle bit of effort goes a long way into recognizing and validating their effort and achievements.
@taras0000, thank you. Very much!
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Old 10-15-18, 10:40 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
That's BS. All it takes on the part of the UCI is some data entry. For an athlete, that lottle bit of effort goes a long way into recognizing and validating their effort and achievements.
To my knowledge the UCI has never recognized Team Pursuit or Team Sprint records for masters. **

Where did anybody get the idea that they did?

**Except that for some reason there is a 135+ combined age record for men's Team Sprint from 2009.

Also, it's worth noting that this men's Team Sprint record got beat in the Qualifiers at Worlds in 2017, but the UCI has not updated it.

You can find the existing master's world records here: About Track Cycling - Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Best Performances (These links below are to specific documents that are valid as of today. At the next update they won't be valid any more. Use the link above to get current data.)
Men - Best performance

Women - Best performance

Editing to add the following:
The 2017 results book lists among other records broken, the team sprint record I mentioned above and my team breaking the record for 3,000m Team Pursuit. However, neither of those results were ever listed on the UCI best performance documents linked to above. The individual results did make their way though.

Basically, my point being that it appears that the UCI doesn't care about masters team records and I don't see that this particular case has anything to do with sex or age group. If they did care, then every winning team pursuit squad would have been recognized for a world record as the 4,000m distance was new to masters.

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Old 10-15-18, 03:41 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Broke a world record...held it for 10min...got beaten by the final rider *shrug*
You are listed as a best performance in Communique 27 (See 2018 results book).
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Old 10-15-18, 03:49 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel View Post
You are listed as a best performance in Communique 27 (See 2018 results book).
OH WOW!

Ah...they have us both in there
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Old 10-15-18, 04:28 PM
  #96  
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I'm really reluctant to post anything here about my successes, I'm just not comfortable being one of two female voices on here.

My friends Bonnie and Barbara were told by *someone* at Worlds last year that there was no record for MW75+ in the TS, and if they rode it this year, they'd set a record. There were plenty of people who knew about their goal. No one said hey, wait a minute...
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Old 10-15-18, 04:33 PM
  #97  
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@southernfox - CONGRATULATIONS!!

I was there to see SF race, all the way through. Really, really great rides. There was no domination, she worked for it. No such thing as a cakewalk at this level!
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Old 10-15-18, 09:04 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by sarals View Post
@southernfox - CONGRATULATIONS!!

I was there to see SF race, all the way through. Really, really great rides. There was no domination, she worked for it. No such thing as a cakewalk at this level!
Why did the top qualifier not race?
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Old 10-15-18, 09:15 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Why did the top qualifier not race?
wondering this too...
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Old 10-15-18, 10:21 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Why did the top qualifier not race?
No idea.
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