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Short Captain Taller Stoker: Is this possible?

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Short Captain Taller Stoker: Is this possible?

Old 01-29-19, 07:58 PM
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SmallLegs
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Short Captain Taller Stoker: Is this possible?

Hello everyone,

I trying to get into the world of tandem bikes but seem to be coming across the same problem looking at bikes. I am 5'6" and my gf is 5'10" and finding a bike that fits us seems to be impossible. I have much more experience biking and have done a few very long trips that I can't stop talking about. After talking about them so much my gf wants to go on a supported touring trip with me and we think that doing that on a tandem would be amazing.

All the tandems I have found seem to have a set up for a taller captain and a shorter stoker. She isn't 100% opposed to being captain but would feel much more comfortable if I could be. Also tracking down a bike that isn't going to break the bank (because we are both college students) would be ideal.

The questions I would have for you all would be:
1. Is it possible to find a bike that would make it possible for both of us to enjoy the ride and both of us would fit on
2. would that bike be conformable putting 70-100 miles on daily for a long tour. (not some beach cruiser tandem)
3. Would it be possible to find a bike that wouldn't break our wallets

Much love,
a short man with a dream
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Old 01-30-19, 12:47 PM
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Just about anything is possible on the bike. Actually finding it at the price you care to pay may not be so possible, though. You can build a bike for that geometry, but finding a used one would be a challenge.
Generally, you'll find frames in the "large", "medium", "small" and "large front/ small rear" combinations. Try checking into the "medium" frames and see how close you each can be fitted there.
One stoker I rode with said she could only ride with tall captains because the height of the captain's seat also limits how high the stoker handlebars can be mounted (and she had back issues). There's likely some way around that, but still, a factor to keep in mind that may not be obvious.
When I bought my CoMotion Primera several years ago, for an extra $500, you could get custom geometry. The Primera was their low-end model. I don't know what the limits are on the custom geometry, or what your budget is, but that's something to look into perhaps.
The CoMotion Periscope is set up specifically to accommodate a large range of riders, basically, when your kid is the stoker and is growing, so you don't have to keep buying new bikes. But, check into the geometry ranges on one of them, it may cover a wider range than standard frames. They do show up on the used marked on occasion.
There is a Bilenky tandem with stoker in front in a recumbent-seat, captain in back upright. I've never used one, but that might be an option. I have seen used ones for sale once or twice and they weren't going for that much due to the odd configuration.
They do make recumbent tandems if that is of interest.
There are several tandem-specific dealers around the country, and if one of them is in your area, a visit or an email might be very informative.
A minor issue, but note that a shorter stoker gives you a better view through a mirror. (Of course, the shorter stoker has less of a view ahead, too!)
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Old 01-30-19, 03:23 PM
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I would look for a bike with a top tube that you can clear as captain, then try an extra long seat post for the stoker. Some seat post flex is actually a desirable thing on a tandem.

A stoker stem like this: https://co-motion.com/product/m
with the addition of another standard stem of the right length and angle ought to be able to get the stoker’s bars in a reasonable position.

Would be be great if you could visit a bike shop that sells and knows tandems. If you want to stay in the used market for cost reasons, just be prepared to do a fair amount of wrenching on the bike yourself.

If tandeming ends ends up working for the two of you, all the effort will be well worth it.
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Old 01-30-19, 03:58 PM
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The challenge with short captain / tall stoker combinations is that the captains seat (or rear end) is often where the stoker's handlebars want to be. The best solution is to get a bike that (1) fits like your road bike in the front and (2) is long enough in the rear to accomodate your stoker. Typically the only folks with bikes for a ~5'3"-5'6" pilot and 5'10-6' are blind men on custom frames. Their frames have a much longer stoker compartment than any production tandem frame. (Like this: https://granitetandemdesign.files.wo.../raam-team.jpg) I doubt you're going to find one of those on a college student budget, so let's check out the cheap workarounds..

Some folks do a workaround whereby the stoker sits more upright than their normal road position. They'll use a multi-part stem to jog the stoker handlebars around the captain's seat. The stoker stem looks like this:
https://www.cycleschinook.com/tandem...p-carousel-740

The other cheap modification for taller stokers is to use a wide handlebar that wraps around the captain's hips. Note that 47cm bullhorn bars are fairly common on the back of tandems. You can see that concept taken to an extreme here with these 56cm wide bullhorn bars:
wwTandems East Forks & Handlebars
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Old 01-31-19, 07:52 AM
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Tandems East has, as do other tandem specialist, a stem set-up where the adjustable portion is a tube which allows the use of a standard thread less stem which gives a significant amount of adjustment for reach and height. Here is a picture of that set-up on our Bushnell.
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Old 01-31-19, 11:50 AM
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As Paul J said. Look for a medium frame and than talk to the people at Tandems East. They will provide the perfect setup and are extremely helpful. A combination of adjustable stem for the stoker and a shorter riser stem for the smaller captain is easily doable.
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Old 01-31-19, 12:44 PM
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In Tandems the larger, stronger, heavier, more experienced person usually goes in front. I think the issue you are up against is a Western culture thing.

Like men driving in most any man/woman automobile situation. Women drive too. Women can even drive men around & nobody bats an eye or even takes notice. But, for reasons that can't be explained, despite mutual equality, when a man & a woman get in a car together, men end up in the drivers seat greater than 50% of the time. ( For the haters: I'm not a chauvenist, I'm not even sure how to spell it. I harbor no feelings either way. It's just a pragmatic observation of cultural norms.) The there is no female equivalent for the acronym MAMIL, either...Strange?

Why is Base2 writing this? Because on a tandem the larger, stronger, heavier, & usually more experienced rider is usually the man, and for reasons of physics the weight should be up front where the steering happens. It's become convention and tandems are built the way they are based on real reasons of functionality.

Are there exceptions? Sure. Custom built tandems come in all varieties. This option sounds like it may be out of your budget though.

The best tandem you can buy is the one that makes you feel ok with your girlfriend as Captain & you as a helpful stoker supporting wherever she decides you both should go.

Hint: The solution to your inquiry is not about finding the right bike.
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Old 01-31-19, 01:48 PM
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Couple of things. Maybe a few things. A 5'10" woman and a 5'10" man are not usually equal with respect to weight, or upper body strength, or other things that pertain to skill as a tandem Captain. I would not automatically assume that just because a woman is bigger ... actually just taller ... that that would in itself be qualification for Captain of a tandem. On the other hand, women Captains do exist. I know a couple where the woman can't be much taller than 5'3" or 5'4" and the man is well over 6'. And he is not a skinny 6'. He is blind, so that decides that. I doubt they were in the "custom tandem" level of disposable income so I have to think available production tandems can be made to work. My wife and I are the exact opposite of the o.p. and his gf. I'll have to put her up front and see what she thinks. I've been in the Stoker section every now and then adjusting bars and seat height but never seriously tried out the ergonomics back there.

I think the tandem (2016 Trek T900) we ride day in and out could fit a 5'6" Captain with some (minor) work (shorter stem). Likewise the Stoker section could accommodate a 5'10" woman because the riding position is fairly upright. The Stoker compartment is a low step over which would make for a really long seatpost extension. I've had seatposts buckle on me on folding bikes. Stronger seatposts in 6061 aluminum can be found. Even higher strength than 6061 is out there but I don't know what they call them. It's not a touring bike though. A Burley Samba is a discontinued model from a defunct manufacturer and there are lots of them around. We bought a mid 1990's one used for $600 (we didn't haggle because the seller brought it to our home) last year but it was stolen before we ever got it on the road. What I remember about the test ride was how light, stiff and fast it was. It was a serious contender in its day. The Stoker section is only slightly smaller than the Captain section. Unlike the Trek, the Burley came in sizes. Ours was probably the middle size. A Burley Samba would be an IDEAL touring bike. They are always available on Craigslist from around $500. If you come across ours, however, please do the right thing and let us know ...

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Old 01-31-19, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SmallLegs
Hello everyone,

I trying to get into the world of tandem bikes but seem to be coming across the same problem looking at bikes. I am 5'6" and my gf is 5'10" and finding a bike that fits us seems to be impossible. I have much more experience biking and have done a few very long trips that I can't stop talking about. After talking about them so much my gf wants to go on a supported touring trip with me and we think that doing that on a tandem would be amazing.

All the tandems I have found seem to have a set up for a taller captain and a shorter stoker. She isn't 100% opposed to being captain but would feel much more comfortable if I could be. Also tracking down a bike that isn't going to break the bank (because we are both college students) would be ideal.

The questions I would have for you all would be:
1. Is it possible to find a bike that would make it possible for both of us to enjoy the ride and both of us would fit on
2. would that bike be conformable putting 70-100 miles on daily for a long tour. (not some beach cruiser tandem)
3. Would it be possible to find a bike that wouldn't break our wallets

Much love,
a short man with a dream
You're only 4" different in height, so it isn't THAT much. I wish my stoker and I were closer in height so we could perhaps trade places. However, your specific body measurements will determine how "different" you two are. So you may do fine on a medium/medium tandem with some minor modifications, regardless of who you put in front.

In fact, it would be cool if you two were close enough in dimensions that you could trade places. But that might just be unrealistic on my part.

Either way, you should have both have a detailed fitting done to see what stock tandem options would work for you. You can then use this information to determine if and what tandems out there meet your parameters. And since cost is a concern, you'll probably have to go it alone and scour the used tandem market to find something that fits.

Maybe you'll just happen to luck out and find something you can trade off captaining and stoking. That would be great. I should add, however, that weight is probably the biggest concern when deciding who's up front. A stoker that is double the weight of the captain has the real risk of redirecting the tandem's trajectory with an ill-timed or advised weight shift. Think of careening into a parked car, or worse!

I'm wondering if you might find some solutions by asking some knowledgeable niche market people. And by this I mean those providing mobility and recreation options for those with sight impairments. BORP is a Bay Area group that does exactly this. They may have information about tandem bikes designed for a larger stoker in back with a smaller sighted captain in front. But again, since you are only 4" apart, I'm hoping you can find a stock solution off the shelf.

Good luck.
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Old 01-31-19, 04:13 PM
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Others have given you advice regarding bike fit. I'll address affordability.

At least in my neck of the woods (Northern California) ten-year-old Cannondale mountain tandems show up pretty regularly on Craigslist for prices around $500. With some slick or semi-slick tires these bikes make great budget touring bikes; very durable and comfortable on a wide variety of terrain. One of these in a medium size might work out well for you.
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Old 01-31-19, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
You're only 4" different in height, so it isn't THAT much. I wish my stoker and I were closer in height so we could perhaps trade places.
I am about 4" taller than my stoker, but her saddle-to-pedal distance is within an inch of mine. Often women have longer legs for a given height than men, who tend to be longer in the torso.
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Old 02-02-19, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by base2

The best tandem you can buy is the one that makes you feel ok with your girlfriend as Captain & you as a helpful stoker supporting wherever she decides you both should go.

Hint: The solution to your inquiry is not about finding the right bike.
I completely understand what you mean B2 with your post. But I have spoken to my girlfriend before making this post about all the options and she really wanted to be stoker. I respect that is some cases men just want to be in front to have the "control" but it is not like that at all.

Biking is something that we have wanted to do together and she has little to no experience on bikes. So forcing her to learn all about biking and the responsibly of being captain all at once may force her away from the sport, not into it.

Also someone else bought up a good point. The height difference isn't too large, so we may be able to trade positions once she becomes comfortable on a bike which would be great!

Thanks for your post
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Old 02-02-19, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by OneIsAllYouNeed

Some folks do a workaround whereby the stoker sits more upright than their normal road position. They'll use a multi-part stem to jog the stoker handlebars around the captain's seat. The stoker stem looks like this:


The other cheap modification for taller stokers is to use a wide handlebar that wraps around the captain's hips. Note that 47cm bullhorn bars are fairly common on the back of tandems. You can see that concept taken to an extreme here with these 56cm wide bullhorn bars:
This was a worry of mine and I was looking all over for exactly this! I think some combination of all this could work.

Thanks so much for your post!
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Old 02-02-19, 10:23 AM
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Short Captain Taller Stoker: Is this possible?

A little bit of an update for everyone!

I found a bike that is a few hours away from me that I am going to check out in 2 weeks. The captain of that bike is taller then I am but he has a medium frame bike because his inseam is the same as mine. So we are both going to go up there in a few weeks to check it out!!!

All of the suggestions everyone has given has been super helpful. The bike sizing and tandem options of StephenH. The seat stem sizing and help from reburns, Paul J, and OneisAllYouNeed was lovely.

The pricing ideas from obrentharris and Leisesturm were also great!

Everyone helped me learn a ton, when there isn't much public information I could find on really technically stuff like this.

Thanks so much and I hope to have a picture for you soon!
-SL
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Old 02-02-19, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
My wife and I are the exact opposite of the o.p. and his gf. I'll have to put her up front and see what she thinks. I've been in the Stoker section every now and then adjusting bars and seat height but never seriously tried out the ergonomics back there.
Switch spots for a ride and tell us how it goes just for fun!

Thanks for the help
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Old 02-02-19, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SmallLegs
Switch spots for a ride and tell us how it goes just for fun!

Thanks for the help
Not for a ride, that's not going to happen. 'J' is a blind stoker like the other couple I mentioned.
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Old 02-03-19, 05:52 PM
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Ever considered a semi-recumbent tandem?
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Old 02-03-19, 07:42 PM
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Short Captain Taller Stoker: Is this possible?

Originally Posted by cat0020
Ever considered a semi-recumbent tandem?
I did but finding one for sale seemed to be very difficult. Did you have one in mind?
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Old 02-04-19, 08:37 AM
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What's your budget for a tandem?
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Old 02-04-19, 11:01 AM
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Around a $1,000

I found a Burley used that may fit for pretty cheap. Just like someone of the others suggested looking for.
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Old 02-04-19, 02:20 PM
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I am biased against those 'hybrid' tandems on principle. Either both riders get to enjoy the yummy recumbent goodness like we do on our recumbent tandem, or neither one does. Only seems fair. Perhaps unfairly, the hybrid tandem has become associated with juvenile or special needs Stoker and I can't fully shake that stigmatization. The hybrid tandem design does, however, solve some problems for the o.p. and his gf. Performer makes a 'Family Tandem' that is a knock-off of the much more expensive Hase Pino that might not cost much more than $1000.
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Old 02-04-19, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SmallLegs
I completely understand what you mean B2 with your post. But I have spoken to my girlfriend before making this post about all the options and she really wanted to be stoker. I respect that is some cases men just want to be in front to have the "control" but it is not like that at all.

Biking is something that we have wanted to do together and she has little to no experience on bikes. So forcing her to learn all about biking and the responsibly of being captain all at once may force her away from the sport, not into it.

Also someone else bought up a good point. The height difference isn't too large, so we may be able to trade positions once she becomes comfortable on a bike which would be great!

Thanks for your post
No worries. Tandemming is about working with your partner to figure it out & work together. From here, it sounds like you are off to a good start.
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Old 02-04-19, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
I am biased against those 'hybrid' tandems on principle. Either both riders get to enjoy the yummy recumbent goodness like we do on our recumbent tandem, or neither one does. Only seems fair. Perhaps unfairly, the hybrid tandem has become associated with juvenile or special needs Stoker and I can't fully shake that stigmatization. The hybrid tandem design does, however, solve some problems for the o.p. and his gf. Performer makes a 'Family Tandem' that is a knock-off of the much more expensive Hase Pino that might not cost much more than $1000.
Have you ever seen one in person or ridden one?
Semi-recumbent tandems like the Hase Pino ($4k and above) or Performer Family Tandem ($1600) are better than traditional tandems because both the captain and stoker have full view of scenery, traditional tandem on allow the stoker to stare into the back of the captain.
Semi-recumbent tandems are likely more compact, weigh less, take up less storage room, easier to transport than regular tandem.
Stigmatization occur only when people don't know the advantages of semi-recumbent tandems over regular tandems, similarly regular bicycle vs recumbent bicycle in general.
If you have never tried one, claims you made about them are just speculation.
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Old 02-04-19, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
Have you ever seen one in person or ridden one?
Semi-recumbent tandems like the Hase Pino ($4k and above) or Performer Family Tandem ($1600) are better than traditional tandems because both the captain and stoker have full view of scenery, traditional tandem on allow the stoker to stare into the back of the captain.
Semi-recumbent tandems are likely more compact, weigh less, take up less storage room, easier to transport than regular tandem.
Stigmatization occur only when people don't know the advantages of semi-recumbent tandems over regular tandems, similarly regular bicycle vs recumbent bicycle in general.
If you have never tried one, claims you made about them are just speculation.
?? I've admitted to having no actual basis for my bias. Your use of "likely this or likely that" similarly show a bias uninformed by actual experience. And that's cool. But even without riding one I can assure you a semi-recumbent will not weigh any less or take up any less room than a full size standard tandem nor will it be any easier to transport. The Stoker having an unobstructed view is absolutely the main unarguable selling point. My Stoker being blind makes that less of a plus, but my observation that what is good for the goose (Stoker) is good for the gander (Captain) is pretty hard to argue with. After around 35 to 40 miles both my and my Stokers saddle to taint interfaces are pretty done in. Our legs and CV system are good for an unknown number more of miles. The recumbent seating position affords the promise of a pain free Century (100 miles) since when you are reclined at 25* your weight gets distributed more evenly across your back and bottom vs just your bottom alone.
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Old 02-05-19, 08:11 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
?? I've admitted to having no actual basis for my bias. Your use of "likely this or likely that" similarly show a bias uninformed by actual experience. And that's cool. But even without riding one I can assure you a semi-recumbent will not weigh any less or take up any less room than a full size standard tandem nor will it be any easier to transport. The Stoker having an unobstructed view is absolutely the main unarguable selling point. My Stoker being blind makes that less of a plus, but my observation that what is good for the goose (Stoker) is good for the gander (Captain) is pretty hard to argue with. After around 35 to 40 miles both my and my Stokers saddle to taint interfaces are pretty done in. Our legs and CV system are good for an unknown number more of miles. The recumbent seating position affords the promise of a pain free Century (100 miles) since when you are reclined at 25* your weight gets distributed more evenly across your back and bottom vs just your bottom alone.
Tandem riding is what I call a relationship accelerator; whether it be good or bad relationship, a tandem ride would accelerate it.. especially when pedal strokes are linked.
I have owned regular tandem and a Performer Family Tandem for nearly ten years.
I've carried many legally blind people on my Family Tandem and they all appreciate the open view from the recumbent seating; they not only can feel their pedaling efforts with wind in their faces, but also "see" it, too.
I know these experience do not apply to all, therefore I use terms "likely this, likely that"; absolutes term like: "pain-free Century" simply does not apply to anyone, even someone with top physical condition would feel some pain after pedaling for 100 miles.
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