WizardOfBoz

So I got an old Schwinn Superior. Tires are 27x1-1/4. Put some panaracers on and hopped on it. It rides great. The spokes have some corrosion. Others here have counseled "don't worry about it - just buff that out" but I weigh 240# and I'm gonna worry about it til I fix it. So I'm looking at new spokes.

The rims are Weinman 27x1-1/4, 36 hole. Hubs are Schwinn high flange. The bikes is from (I guess) about 1978.

None of the spoke length calculators seem to accomodate this size wheel. So I started to investigate.

1) The spokes cross on opposite sides of the hub rims. That is, one "cross" is on opposite sides of the hub rim. When counting "cross", does the crossing at the hub count? These would be 4 cross which seems weird to me. Did Schwinn do that?

2) In some cases one spokes' shank touches the upset head of another spoke.

2) The front wheel is improperly dished. About 2.5 mm off (the difference on the truing stand is about 5mm*). So one side spoke measurement is approximately 1 or 2 mm different from the other. I'm getting 308 and 310mm.

3) Can anyone tell me if 309mm is consistent with 4 cross 27x1-1/4 with a Schwinn high flange hub?

I'm gonna check the rear dish* next. I think I'm gonna have to pull three spokes (one front, the two different rear ones to get accurate measurements. But even so, if its four cross I'd probably want to change it to 3 as the more standard format and a format in which the spoke shank doesn't touch another spoke's head. With 36 spokes I'm not going to sweat the extra strength that 4 cross brings (supposedly - when the spoke shank doesn't it the other spoke's head). But does 4 cross ride nicer than 3 cross?

Obviously, I'm just figuring this out. Any advice from old hands would be appreciated.


* I recognize that for accurate dishing the truing stand is not considered the proper tool. But for uncovering the significant mismatch it seems fine.

Bill Kapaun

Remove a spoke and measure it!

I have/had an 72ish Takara with 27" rims.
36H, 4X 15ga.

To count crosses.
Pick a spoke.
How many other spokes does it cross from the SAME flange before it reaches the rim? Many miss the 1st cross close to the hub.

nfmisso

1st. follow @Bill Kapaun 's advice.
2nd. Measure what you have. Purchase a pair of HF calipers and measure the hub characteristics required by SpocCalcExpress (see Sheldon's website). Measure the ERD of the rim; look in this forum for various techniques.
3rd. The measurements will provide the inputs required.

ThermionicScott 

Hopefully the hubs and rims are in really good shape to consider rebuilding the wheels with them. Might be worth cracking open the hubs and confirming that they aren't pitted. The rims are aluminum and not worn out, right?

mrrabbit 

Wheels By Fleming Bicycle Wheels Documents - mrrabbit.net

=8-)

WizardOfBoz

Guys,

Per Mr. Kapaun, it looks like this is a 4 cross setup (cuz you do count the cross at the hub). Any reason NOT to go to 3 cross? The amount of reading I've done is pretty much saying that 4 cross is less laterally rigid, and (given the shank/head interaction) I'm guessing its not stronger than 3 cross.

Wiz.

ThermionicScott 

4-cross typically gets you closest to fully tangent spoking with 36 spokes. For a driven wheel that puts the hub flanges in their strongest position.

Does it make a difference over 3-cross? Probably academic for most riders. I've built all my 36-spoke wheels 3-cross, and they are no doubt way overbuilt for my needs.

The nice thing about rebuilding with the same length spokes is that you can leave the wheel together, and replace many of the spokes one at a time. (Some you can't.) Sounds like you're itching for more of a "project" than that, though.

Retro Grouch 

If it was my bike the first thing I would do would be to feel the brake tracks on both wheels with my fingers. If the rims feel noticeably concave, that's brake wear. I'd be reluctant to put the time it takes to rebuild a wheel into that rim.

Since it sounds like you have already decided to rebuild the wheel set, the next thing that I would do would be to disassemble both wheels. Measure a spoke from each side of both wheels and write down those numbers someplace. Measure from the inside of the elbow to the end of the spoke.

Now completely disassemble both wheels. When they're apart, lay them down on something flat to see how warped the rims are. The flatter and rounder your rim, the easier the rebuilding process will be. If the brake tracks are worn, of if the rim is very warped, I wouldn't bother with it. If you decide to replace the rims, the easiest way to determine spoke length is to find exact replacement rims. You may be able to find brand new replacements, but I doubt it. Otherwise you are going to need to find and figure out how to use a spoke calc program.

Good luck. If you decide to proceed beyond this point, post again with whatever questions you have as they come up.

fietsbob

Their vender, Normandy, made hubs back then.. for them..

JohnDThompson 

Unless your goal is to restore to OEM spec, it's probably more cost effective to replace the entire wheel rather than trying to use the old parts.

WizardOfBoz

Well, it's good to think about one's goals. I was thinking to restore it to close to original, while having some fun building a wheel. There are, apparently, some pretty good 27 inch rims out there. I'll see how it goes. I do have some campy hub 700c wheels from my old paramount. Not sure that they fit the frame, or that the brake has the necessary reach. Will check. That could be an option.

When I worked in the Schwinn shop in the 1970s, I looked down my nose at the fillet brazed "internally lugged" frames. With age comes perspective. Interesting that, when I get on this bike now, its clear that it rides well.

Mad Honk 

Wiz,
Rebuild your wheels! My experience is that all 27 inch wheels regardless of hub flange diameter will build with 12" spoke in a four cross pattern and work out nicely. For a five speed rear wheel the dish will workout to two extra turns on the drive-side spokes to be darned close to correct. The parts you have are pretty much bomb proof in the hub design, and the rim configuration. New spokes will restore them just fine. Last box of 12"spokes I bought through the co-op for $18.30. And there were enough for four wheels. HTH, MH

Sorry Wiz, Just re-read your OP! The four cross pattern will suit you better at your weight as they are stronger in radial roll out and will take any bumps and curb bruises better than the three cross patterns. They take flexing a bit better and was the main reason why Schwinn used that pattern for the bikes they sold to the general public.

WizardOfBoz

Thanks, Honk. I was wondering about the reason for that four cross pattern. My 73' Voyageur also is 4 cross. My 79 Paramount wheels were three cross. I'll still remove a spoke from the front and two from the back to measure. So you're saying that the same size spoke works on both sides on the rear, eh? I'm still learning. Will advise, all. Thanks again.

BTW, to Retro Grouches' point, there appears to be little wear on the rims. The rims are Weinman (hookless, I think!).

WizardOfBoz

Aha! That fits the "Made in France", and "Schwinn De Luxe" stampings on the hub...

WizardOfBoz

Looks like 308mm front spokes, with a 64mm hub hole diameter. Spokes look to be double butted 0.065/0.080 inches (1.65 and 2mm, or 16 and 14 gauge, unless I'm mistaken). So DT Swiss has DT Competion spokes, which are available in 2x1.8mm, and DT Revolution, at 2x1.5mm. Sapim has a 2x1.65mm, the D-Light, which matches exactly. They're all a bit above a buck a spoke, with a nipple (!).

Mad Honk 

Wiz,
I suspect that you are pretty familiar with the lacing process, so the issue of dish is one that I do routinely by the build process. If you lace the wheel, and then tighten all of the spokes down to two threads of the spoke sticking above the end tip of the nipple on a front wheel it will be close to true and radial. By systematically tightening each spoke in 1/2 turn increments you can maintain the radial position and the true. When the spoke get reasonably tight using the system you are down to fine tuning for true and some slight inconsistencies in roll-out. On a Rear wheel the same is true but start with all of the spokes on the drive side and tighten until two threads remain above the tip of the spoke nipple, and on the non-drive side leave four threads showing. Again this should put the wheel into true and close to radial. Same process to tighten the spokes, but check to be sure dish is correct along the way. It will be a piece of cake! Smiles, MH

Wiz, I went to the UBI calculator and with a 63 mm hub, and a 617 mm ERD; the spokes calculate to 305mm. Same as a 12" spoke. The plated spokes are going to be less $ and a box is less than half the cost of one wheel with the DT stainless double butted spokes. JMHO.

WizardOfBoz

Honk,

Thanks for sharing your expertise. I'm gonna remeasure everything on Saturday when I have time. The spokes are definitely 308, so maybe the Weinman rim isn't 617 ERD? One resource (here) has Weinman 27 inch rims at 621, 622, and 624mm ERD. But those are modern rims, not my vintage ones. I think I have to measure. The spoke length computer I used gave me 308.1 for a 621mm ERD, 63mm hub flange (spoke hole circle diameter), a 41mm hub center to hub flange distance, and a 2.5mm hole (for 36 spoke 4 cross).

Two facts you may find interesting. First, the FRONT wheel dish is off by about 4mm. Next, the wheels are laced asymmetrically. That is, the spokes on the outside of the hub go forward on on side, and backwards on the other. They should be symmetrical, right?

I thought that the spoke should extend to the face of the nipple, but should not protrude. Protrude = flat. Not reaching the nipple face = nipple can brake at the neck. No?

Where is a good source for chrome-plated steel spokes?

WizardOfBoz

I'm done with the front wheel. Went with 4 cross (ala original) and the same asymmetric spoke setup that Schwinn used. That is, the outboard spokes (that enter the hub from the inside) go forward facing one side, and backward facing the other. Corrected the weird dishing problem. Spoke tension is about 85kgf right now. Could go higher. Wheel looks good.

Jeff Wills

Yes, that's how they taught us in Schwinn School back then. As others said- it won't make any difference in wheel strength. What's most important is that the spoke tension is even among all the spokes. I would not go too high with the tension- those Weinmann rims were somewhat less rigid than modern rims (mostly because they were lighter). This makes them easier to true but also more likely to potato-chip if the overall tension is too high. Don't ask me "how high is too high"... spoke tension meters didn't become popular until the late '80's, long after your Superior was built and I learned to build wheels.

FWIW: I owned a 1978 Schwinn Superior way back when. I modified it extensively back then before selling it. I now have a 1977 Superior that I turned into a resto-mod: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ohpv/a...57642470085394

ThermionicScott 

+1. I've built or tuned up a few 36-spoke front wheels, and sometimes they feel "done" at about 80 kgf.

WizardOfBoz

Thanks guys. Very useful to get info from guys that have actually done this. Jeff, that green Superior restomod looks like a sweet ride. Nicely done! Did you decided on tires? Thanks for the bit of history about the Schwinn school.

I think that the ~80kgf spoke tension feels much tighter than the original (I didn't have my spoke tension meter when I took the things apart). It seems to me that there's a high limit to spoke tension, and you have a choice of how low you can go below that. The lower you go, the more likely you are to have spoke problems (breakage, spontaneous self-untruing, etc.).

I'm doing the rear wheel asymmetricaly (1.8mm DS, 1.65mm NDS) and was planning on going much higher than 80 (more like 110 or so). I'll see how this goes and will sneak up an 100 kgf DS and see where the NDS are at that point.

Pretty fun to finally lace a wheel. I considered this for a long time. I remember seeing Perry O. (Racine Cyclery) do it when I was a kid working in the shop. Perry would use a Yankee Screwdriver (I think it was actually a VAR tool) to start the nipples and was really impressive to watch him making a wheel. He really got after it and was very skilled. Good memories working at that shop.

Once I'm done with these wheels I'm planning on cleaning up the Superior to vintage/riding condition (Jeff sets a high bar, though!). In parallel, I'll probably relace my Campy low flange hubs from my (now sold) paramount. The wheels have straight gage 2mm spokes - I think we can do better than that. And, as has been pointed out, butted spokes may actually be effectively stronger than straight gauge.

Just as an aside, since I don't have a bike for my Campy wheels, it will be interesting to see how the Superior rides with them.

Mad Honk 

Wiz,
Congrats on yer new build!
Jeff,
Back when I learned how to build wheels, we were told that we have two tensionometers to work with. The index finger and thumb of the left and right hand! I remember that WWII was won by a bunch of farm boys who could fix a jeep with some bailing wire and any other thing they could find around them. In today's world they would need the same $4500 Snap-On analyser I use to find problems with a new Chevy. Things sure have changed during my trips around the sun. Smiles, MH

Jeff Wills

Still trying to figure out tires for the Green Superior. These Goodyear brand tires seem like a good match for the resto-mod vibe of the bike: https://www.biketiresdirect.com/prod...wire-bead-tire but they seem a bit heavy. On the other hand, I'm a bit heavy nowadays... maybe that's a sign.

WizardOfBoz

I'm using Panaracers. About the same tred pattern, if my eyes don't decieve me. The original was gum sidewall to go with the gum rubber hoods. But your setup is more modern and clean.

BTW, what is your process for cleaning off and derusting the chrome? So that it doesn't immediately rust again?

WizardOfBoz

Mad Honk, Thanks for your help and encouragement.