fmattheus

I believe your mission is going to have to include a whole lot more companies than just Bike Friday. Chromoly is a very common term in the bike industry.

My god ... Bruce Gordon doesn't even mention chromoly on his website, but only 4130. How are customers going to know what he's talking about? I'm pretty sure that Bike Friday is proud of the fact that their bikes are made of steel. Why are you assuming they are not so?

PDR

Personally I think there is an issue being made here over nothing.

My main exposure to steel types is in relation to knife steels, where it is far more important to know what type or grade of steel a knife is made from so as to know how well it will hold up to hard use or how difficult it is to re-sharpen. I have a good number of production and high dollar custom hand made knives where steel type can greatly add to the desirably and cost of a blade. In the majority of cases these knives only have the letters/numerals describing the type of steel. For example even a fairly inexpensive Spyderco sat on my desk here has CPMS30V on the blade. It does not say steel on the blade (I know it is steel though) and I would not expect to see the word “steel” on anything other than really cheap blades.

I’m fairly new to materials used in cycle frames (though I have experience of motorcycle frames), but I would have thought that the main concern of the “unschooled newbie” would be the frame is strong, durable and reasonably light in weight. I very much doubt that your “unschooled newbie” would appreciate that different frame materials can give varying ride characteristics nor would he really care.

If a person is in the Market for a Bike Friday and is concerned as to the frame material he or she only has to check out Chrome Moly on a site like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_moly

If you are in the market for an expensive bike then you would normally read up and research the spec and that includes finding out what all those specialised and technical terms mean.



Paul
.

vik 

I just checked the Dahon site for the specs on the Speed D7, which I own, here is what it says for frame material:

"The SuperLite 4130 chromoly frame is strong, light and responsive."

"Frame: K Series, SuperLite 4130 chromoly, custom-drawn double-butted Sonus tubing, forged Lattice hinge, patented ViseGrip™ technology, forged drop outs."

"Fork: Integrated, patented Fusion technology"

I checked the rest of the description for that bike and the word steel isn't mentioned. So you better get on Dahon's case as well. I guess they are also a disingenuous company with a steel inferiority complex....LMAO...... Clearly they are trying to confuse non-expert bike purchasers with techno babble and obfuscation. Looks like they are not only ashamed of their steel bikes, but they are trying to scam the newbie folding bike customer...

Let us know what Dahon says when you contact them.

Speedo

I think the heart of Keith's post is:

It is interesting to see that it's not just Bike Friday that shuns the word steel. It's clear that it's not really a matter of fooling anyone, but somehow steel has become a dirty word.

When I talk to biking buddies and say that I like steel frames they roll their eyes, sigh loudly and accuse me of being a retro-grouch. Dammit, I like steel bicycle frames! They go a fine job, are relatively cheap and, to me at least, inspire confidence. Why should I be made to feel ashamed that I'm not riding the latest in carbon and titanium?

Let's call a "chrome moly" frame what it is. It's a chrome moly STEEL frame!

Speedo

werewolf

Maybe the marketing guys think that "steel" sounds like something heavy to the hoi poloi.

invisiblehand

As I believe someone alluded to, just about anyone purchasing a Bike Friday already knows that chomoly is a type of steel. So instead of obfuscating the truth or it being a marketing ploy, perhaps it is just being parsimonious.

Keith C. Johns

Thanks Speedo; you get it. I see steel as a great thing, and I do not understand why BF seems ashamed to mention the word.

Vik, If Dahon has omitted the word "steel" on a particular bike specification, they more than make up for it with their very detailed discussion under Frame Materials where the word Steel is mentioned at least eight times with no apologies.

You other guys who think "Chrome Moly" doesn't need to include the word "Steel" because anyone in the bike industry already knows that it is steel and that it is acceptable as a shorthand lingo, or can easily look it up in Google, you are forgetting that Bike Friday doesn't even say "Chrome Moly" up front; try looking it up on their site and see how long it takes you to find it, without using Google as a short-cut. They are clearly hiding their frame material as if they are ashamed of it. And you are begging the issue if you expect new purchasers to have to second-guess every "candid" answer and look the terms up in Google to understand what they meant.

Diode100, what do I want to believe in? I want to believe a company I purchase a bike from is truthful in all their claims. Is that so hard to understand?

Some of these responses sound like they haven't even read my original post; I think I wrote the open letter well enough. Perhaps "Bike Forums" should be renamed "Bike Battles" because with few exceptions, you guys seem more intent on attacking or picking apart a post rather than getting the point being made and supporting it if it sounds as if the bicycling community would be better if the point were applied. Do you always attack ideas that would have made the cycling industry more honest and clear? Argue for obfuscation and you will be rewarded with more of it.

brakemeister

Crmo Steel is way lighter and can take the abuse way better than regular steel. Sure one could say steel, but than in the same sentence I would like to know if we are talking gas pipes or crmo
:-)

Thor

vik 

Actually IME people only really argue over the posts they disagree with. If you wanted to avoid any debate over your letter you could have just sent it to Bike Friday. If you post it to a public forum you can't really complain when people who don't agree with you say so.

Personally I find your letter and its ridiculous accusations far more troubling than the lack of the word steel on Bike Friday's website. So as you suggest - if I want to see less of it I need to make my opinion clear. I have yet to hear anyone anywhere suggest they bought a Bike Friday and were duped as to what material their bike was made from.

Mr. Smith

Nope. The density of AISI 4130 and ASTM A992 and ASTM A36 and ASTM A572 (<-- "regular" structural steels) is all the same at 490lb/ft^3. The difference is AISI 4130 comes in different shapes. Alloys are fine-tuned for the methods used to form those shapes and the applications for which they are typically used. Manufacturers don't buy a square hunk of steel and form it, they buy it from a mill that produces the shapes they order and fabricate it to their needs. AISI 4130 typically comes in hollow tubes (squre, round, etc.) and can be special ordered into custom geometry making it a good choice for a bike manufacturer trying to maximize the efficiency of their sections and create a unique look. Many other low-cost steels don't have that degree of customization. You can order steel sheet and form it, but structural sections need to be seamlessly extruded for the most part to mitigate local failure zones in the material due to a non-uniform cross section, plus it’s much cheaper to shoot them out like a play dough mold than build them.

invisiblehand

Well, you are free to your opinion. But that seems like a wild speculation, IMO.

invisiblehand

Hmmmm, that is interesting. Something new to me.

brakemeister

well
the bike manufacturer who built bikes with regular steel do NOT buy
ASTM A992 and ASTM A36 and ASTM A572 which might have the same 490lb/ft^

they buy cheap gas pipe , which is heavier and not as strong ...lets not try to confuse the issue.

thor

Mr. Smith

Of course they wouldn't buy A992 or A36 or A572. A992 is exclusively used in wide flange beams used in building construction, A36 is available as plates, angles, and pipe with a wall thickness of no less than 3/16 of an inch, and A572 is only rolled out as plate anymore but used to have more sections available. All steel alloys have a density in that range. There are no magic light steels, they all weigh about the same. What you may be thinking of is a very high quality steel (high strength) can use a very light section using a smaller amount of steel, but the material densities are all in a close range.

A reputable bike, which I am assuming is what we're talking about (not something welded together in some guy's garage or imported illegally) is made of rated materials. I am not familiar with the exact liability attached to bike manufacturers for public safety. In this country most likely the Consumer Public Safety Commission has published safety requirements that probably include stress fracture testing. Considering many manufactures talk about using finite element analysis to analyze bike frames under many load conditions, the only people who would have any clue what that is and how to do it would be engineers who would be bound by licensing requirements to only use structural grade materials with statistically standardized mechanical properties in engineered systems or risk losing their license. Everything from furniture to hand railing is reviewed and designed by engineers for compliance with safety requirements and there are safety codes and standards for virtually anything, even if its written by the industry leaders and not a municipality to manage liability and maintain consumer confidence.

I, sir, am not confused, least of all about engineered materials.

Mr. Smith

The CPSC produced a manual of standard practices for bicycles in the 70s that's still used today. A joint committee of industry figureheads and related government officials also meets regularly called ASTM F08.10 to discuss addenda and write new standards, so you can't in this country (USA) build a bike out of "cheap gas pipe" and have it approved for sale. Ironically, Huffy (as much as it's poo pooed) is a major player in these standards, as is Giant, Trek, and Specialized and all sit on ASTM F08.10.

"Gas pipe" is also heavily regulated if you are talking about transporting natural gas or propane.

By the by, I have also seen standards produced by Great Britain and New Zealand. I'd say most countries probably have something.

A link to the manual: https://www.cpsc.gov/BUSINFO/testbicycle.pdf

atom bomb

You make some good points about steel, yes. But if your cause is to criticize deceptive business practices, I would suggest you go after firms that are violating laws, threatening civil rights, denying benefits, reaping huge profits at the expense of taxpayers or the commons - not Bike Friday. The bikes are good, the company has a social conscience and the harm done by de-emphasizing the use of steel seems minimal, no? I think it's great that you are willing to take the time to write a thoughtful letter like you did. "Step it up" to companies that are doing some real damage and you would really be on to something.

Diode100

Minimal ? I would say the ''harm'' was non-existant !

fmattheus

I would say that they are using a more specific industry standard term. I'm don't believe they're downplaying anything or are embarrassed nor do they have any need to be of their selection of materials.

maranen

+1

makeinu

I don't think this is unique to the topic of frame material. Bike Friday just has a confusing and uninformative website. Pick any topic you like and you'll have the same trouble.

Mr. Smith

That's the whole point I've been trying to convey. I found a list of steels (and a few other materials) that are appropriately sized and shaped for bike frames.

https://strongframes.com/downloads/Tubing2006.pdf

If you were a manufacturer and spent big bucks on Reynolds 953 (proprietary name) for your bikes, wouldn't you want the public to distinguish that from "Steel" and any of the ambiguous materials out there under that label? It's not the same at all as say AISI 4130. Let's face it, the loads that bikes undergo are nothing for a high strength material. One of the biggest advancements in steel alloys in the past 100 years has been successfully milling high strength steels into lighter and lighter gauges (just like steel studs that didn't exist years ago).

One thing that annoys me a little about bike manufacturers is they seem to confuse density with weight in their marketing. They say things like "this steel is lighter than aluminum alloy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". Well, not really... What they should say is, "This steel can be made in sections of the same weight or less than alluminum alloy with greater or equal strength!!!!!!!" Not as flashy, but at least not misleading. The density of steel is about twice alluminum, so if compared in two equal 1" cubes, steel will always weigh about twice as much. However, the strength of steel and toughness is much higher than aluminum.

MnHPVA Guy

Actually it's very close to 3 times as dense. And almost exactly 3 times as stiff.

From this discussion, I'm gonna guess none of you guys know Alan Scholz. He's a total bike nut who may never have considered that there are people out there who can't tell a Friday is steel just by looking at it. Or who wouldn't know that 4130 is steel. The person writing the ad copy probably asked Alan or one of the other gearheads there what the frame was made of and the responder didn't think to dumb down the answer.

In a long discussion of bike design with him, the subject of frame material never came up, because for a bike like the Friday, nothing else would make sense.

His customers seem to come in two flavors.
Those who are passionate about the bike itself and those who are passionate about what the bike can do. The 1st group knows what 4130 is and the 2nd group couldn't care less.

Keith C. Johns

Mr. Smith, I think you and Thor would agree, but are saying the same thing two different ways. It isn't that Chromoly steel weighs less than mild steels, it's that chromoly steel is stronger and thus, in certain shapes and work-hardened appropriately, less of it is needed to do the same job, and thus a lighter bike frame is yielded because there is less steel there to add to the weight.

I appreciate your supportive comments. Before I tackle the big industrial giants, I thought I should ease my way into being a crusader for justice, so I have started modestly. But seriously, I really approve of Bike Friday's product line, as I said in my letter. It is just this one thing that irks me about them, and it is enough to cause me to distrust and dismiss them.

I can just hear someone in the boardroom saying, "We have data which suggests that 89% of our target consumers equate steel bike frames with low-end quality. Therefore, in spite of the fact that we use high grade steel tubing, since we do not intend to deviate from our manufacturing process, it is this study's recommendation that we avoid using the word "steel" anywhere on our website and moreover, avoid the mention of frame materials altogether, except for a brief note well buried in the FAQs which should just say "Chrome Moly" and drop the word "steel" to satisfy any pesky inquirer, who can look that up to figure it out if he is that persistent. Most consumers, who only know that steel is what the cheap bikes are made of, the ones we targeting here, will assume Chrome Moly is some exotic new alloy. Let them. I know this may come across as evasive, and lead some people to call us 'disingenuous,' but we will garner more new sales than this approach will lose. Sorry if you would prefer a straight-forward honest approach, but this study concludes that it is better to mislead by sidestepping the frame material issue than to be honest. Honesty here will lose us sales. Any questions?" "Yes, Richardson in the back there." "Sir, won't we lose some customers who will see through this evasiveness and think we are a dishonest company?" "Richardson, we have crunched the numbers on this study and proven with several focus groups that most people will not notice the change, and that we expect our net annual sales will increase by at least 15% just by dropping the use of the word "steel." So, yes we will alienate a small percentage of discerning clients, but the benefit in sales outweighs any possible downside." "Yes, Peters!" "Sir, is it possible that this day will be looked back upon as the day Bike Friday turned to the Dark Side?" "Peters, you watch too many movies."

I would like to recommend Bike Friday whole-heartedly, if they can come clean on this issue. So I thought maybe they would be open to a little constructive criticism. Perhaps, as MnHPVA Guy has suggested, they are not even aware of this perception; it will be interesting to see if they are responsive. It will say a lot about their company.

Maybe, as others have suggested, nobody else in the whole world has noticed this issue, because either they don't care about frame materials, or they already know so much about it that they can guess (even without finding the buried coded "Chrome Moly" FAQ) although I doubt this, but if this is the case, it is probably not worth their effort to change a thing, or to even respond to my letter. That will be fine for me; I will continue to hold reservations about their company, and voice them to anyone asking my opinion about the company, but it will probably never impact their sales noticeably. Public relations is a funny thing: sometimes a little goes a long way, and sometimes a lot doesn't change the tide of opinion.

I will say that I have offered up suggestions to Dahon, who is much larger than Bike Friday, and they have actually reorganized their website to accommodate several of my suggestions; it has given me a great respect for their company's way of doing business, and I see them as cutting edge partly because of this responsiveness to constructive criticism. I would like to see if Bike Friday is listening, or if they are too arrogant to listen.

By the way, I did first send this letter directly to Bike Friday, and then shared it here with you guys to see if it had universal support. From the mixed but mostly negative reactions, Bike Friday might as well just ignore my letter because most of you just don't seem to see my point. Of course the response here is not statistically definitive since the type of person most likely to respond to this thread is the angry disagreeable type, and the ones who agree with me are not steamed up enough to bother to respond, or do not want to make themselves targets as well. In other words, it is more fun and less risk to rip someone's ideas down than be supportive.

My criticism of Bike Friday is constructive because I include the solution in my criticism. So I am not just tearing them down, I am offering a fix too. Be honest. "Our frames are made of Cromoly 4130 Steel and we are proud of this fact." But are they listening and are they willing to respond?

Anyway, thanks for the support from those who have seen some merit in my observations.

Today, Bike Friday, tomorrow, EXXON!

Diode100

Maybe you should think about changing the tablets, Keith, doesn't sound as if they are working.

Sixty Fiver

I have a bunch of those fancy Reynold's 501, 531, and 753 aluminium frames... they are seriously light and yet, remarkably strong. Who would want old fashioned steel...cause that stuff is heavy.

Seriously... I build bikes and work with steel.

What makes good quality steel tubes light is the fact they are drawn and butted up to as many as 4 times and because of this you can have tube walls being as little as .3mm thick if you are using tubing such as R753 or R953which has a very high tensile strength due to the particular alloying of that material. Those thin tube walls will be found on track bikes built for lightweights like me.

Carbon steel such as 1020 can also be used to build a good bike but it won't be light because it cannot be drawn like modern steel alloys and is only about half as strong...so you need more of it.

This is where the folks at many companies may have an issue with the word steel as in most people's experience, a steel bike is that old Schwinn or Raleigh (god love em) that rode like a dream, lasted forever, weighed a freaking ton, and didn't fold up.

Well... my Phillip's Twentys (made by Raleigh) are strong and they fold up and aren't as heavy as they used to be since I used some of that real aluminium to replace the much heavier steel parts.

My old Raleigh 3 speed weighs 42 pounds and will probably outlast many bikes that are made of much swankier materials since there is a lot of steel in that frame to compensate for the 1020 being about half as strong as Reynold's 753. It will outlast us all.

So... good on whoever wrote Bike Friday (cause I lost track) as it would be a good thing for a company like them to extol the virtues of steel although I don't think they were trying to be deliberately devious and make such a great product, I'd certainly buy one if I had the money to burn.

More and more people are joining the Steel is Real movement every day and it would serve companies well to recognize that and describe their products in a better manner.

Folks come into our (bike) shop nearly every day and ask what chromoly is because it's true...they don't know it's steel and teaching them metallurgy is a fun side gig.