bikemig 

I ended up with 2 120 OLD bikes I plan on refurbishing (an early 70s Mercier 300 and a '68 Schwinn paramount). I good quality 120 OLD wheelsets with high flange record hubs for the 2 bikes and I don't plan on spreading them.

I recently bought an ultra 6 suntour freewheel that is in great shape but the tooth progression is poor (15-16-20-24-27-30).

It looks like suntour ultra 6 and suntour 7s have the same sprocket thickness (1.85 mm) and the same spacer thickness (3.15 mm). This is Sheldon's cribsheet:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html

(1) If I want to improve the progression on my existing 15-16-20-24-27-30 freewheel, the easiest source of new cogs is to cannabalize an existing 7. I realize that not all the cogs/spacers from the 7 might work because there are different positions on the freewheel that take different cogs (some thread and some slide on if I remember correctly).

(2) Is it possible to build a DIY suntour ultra 6 by taking a 5 speed suntour body and cannabilizing an ultra 7 for the parts? I understand again that there are some issues with the position on the freewheel.

trainman999

new winner 03 by kurtsj00, on Flickr

sixer

I don't know the answer but these are posted in Boston for short money - Evan
https://boston.craigslist.org/nwb/bo...067016684.html
https://boston.craigslist.org/nwb/bo...068769530.html

jeirvine 

I have done (1) before, with no issues. It's best to cannibalize the same model in a 6s non-ultra.

Dean51 

I've got a heap....well, you know, lots.....of SunTour cogs that I'll never use. Many are new. If you can get back to me with the the cog(s) you need, I'll confirm what I can supply for little more than the cost of shipping. I'll need the cog style (alpha character) and tooth count for each.

Dean

bikemig 

This is helpful. Looks one real difference between an U6 and a 7 is the outer but other than that there appears to be a fair amount of interchangeability.

thumpism 

I don't think this is possible because the threaded portion of the 5-speed body is not the same diameter as that of the threaded U7 cogs, as I recall. Might be wrong, but we'd have done this back then if you could do it. Splined cogs might interchange but I think the U7's nubs have to be ground down to fit a 5, or vice versa.

Salamandrine 

I think that the first two cogs are unique and have to be ultra type. The rest are interchangeable except for the spacers being different.

I used to build ultra 6 and 7 freewheels all the time from a cog board just like the one posted. But that was decades ago, so my memory of it is fuzzy and I could be mistaken.

bikemig 

Yeah that makes sense. Well I might be able to find some cogs to work with my ultra 6 to get a better progression.

Salamandrine 

After looking at the chart, it was only the ultra 7 that had two 'special' cogs. Only the first cog of an Ultra 6 is special. ("S" cog) The rest could be pilfered from a regular new winner.

Not sure how you got 15t for a starting gear though. Perhaps it was offered at some point in history. Anyone else have a Suntour cog board from a different time? 15T small was rather unusual except for one thing, it was used for junior racing as the biggest allowable gear.

bikemig 

There were 15 outers available. I toured across the country in '97 with a 15-30 6 speed regular freewheel that I built just for the crossing. So I like the 15 outer on my ultra 6 but I need to do something about the 2d and 3d cogs (16 and 20) to get a decent progression. I think I'm going to see what i can pilfer to make this work as you suggest.

3alarmer 

...yes, thanks for that reference. I have been forced to start reworking old freewheels because of their current cost and availability in the ranges I like. It prints well, too, at around 150%.

steelbikeguy

how are you set for Winner Pro middle cogs? i.e. the ones with tons of splines? B17's and C20's are the ones I seem to use most.

I've also got about 20 to 30 pounds of cogs. I inherited them from a friend who scavenged them from local shops when they got rid of their SunTour cog boards. Most of my collection is geared (so to speak) towards the New Winner bodies.
I've got some spare spacers too, which seem to be at least as important as the cogs when you are trying to cobble together a freewheel from spare bits laying around.

Steve in Peoria

steelbikeguy

any chance you can share a photo of the freewheel body?
or maybe just a photo of the end of the freewheel so we can get an idea what model it is? This is an important detail that could scuttle your plans.

fwiw, here is some general info about cogs and spaces for the New Winner family...

details of the arrangements for the different configurations. Of special note is the spacer thickness, and the specs for what spacers are used in each configuration.



here's the link to the very high resolution version of this....
https://live.staticflickr.com/4239/3...2126d_6k_d.jpg


and the general description of the different configurations....



and here's a link to a high resolution version...
https://live.staticflickr.com/3307/3...175a3_3k_d.jpg

Steve in Peoria

Dean51 

I have just four Winner Pro cogs. B-19, B-17, C-16, and C-15. These are of no value to me. If you would like to have one or all of them, send me a PM with your shipping address and I'll drop them in the mail for you.

Cheers!

Dean

trainman999

2 questions
1 if you have an ultra 7 to canablise why not use the body to make an ultra 6?
2 why not have pastorbob (he is a fourm member) make up one like you want, he has the tools and knolage recondition one and rebuild it to the cogs you want?
FreeWheelSpa.com orpastorbobnlnh.com

bikemig 

Yeah, you're right as to 1. I thought the bodies were different but they are not. I hadn't seen that schematic that steelbikeguy posted before (post 14).

And great idea on sending the freewheel to pastorbob for the spa treatment. I was hoping to be able to rebuild my existing ultra 6 without having to send it out. Besides, and I could be wrong, I don't think he likes the suntour 2 prong freewheels,

pastorbobnlnh 

If you are working with either a Perfect or ProCompe body, the smallest threaded sprocket has a built in spacer and is for either a 5 speed or 6 speed Ultra spacing. The second smallest sprocket is also threaded and has a partial built in spacer. It requires a second removable spacer that is either thin for Ultra 6 speed spacing, or thicker for 5 speed or regular 6 speed spacing. These threaded sprockets will all fit on the second threaded position of New Winner, Winner and Winner Pro bodies.

The splined larger sprockets for Perfect and ProCompe all fit in the largest splined sprocket position on New Winner, Winner and Winner Pro bodies.

All New Winner, Winner and Winner Pro bodies are the same "height," and can thus be configured as either 5, Ultra 6, 6 or 7 speed freewheels.

However, the Perfect and ProCompe bodes come in three different "heights," i.e. 5 speed, Ultra 6 speed and 6 speed. These bodies cannot be interchanged because the "shelf" at the transition between splined and threaded sprockets is at a different position on each body. Thus, a 6 speed body cannot be converted to Ultra 6 by using thinner spacers (hope this makes sense).

Finally, let me clarify, the only Suntour Freewheel Body which I find challenging and troubling is the New Winner with the outer adjustable bearing race. The reason for this is two fold. Suntour used a very brittle steel alloy on these and they often seize together via corrosion and will break or chip and be damaged when trying to thread off for servicing. Second, the race and locking ring are too thin and not "beefy" enough to endure the stress of the freewheel removal tool which can deform the "round" of the body. Sometimes after removing the race and lock ring they will not thread back on. Since the threads look to be in perfect shape, the only explanation is that either they or the body is now no longer perfectly round.


IMO--- Perfect and ProCompe freewheels are the sweet spot in vintage 5 to 6 speed freewheels. The only down side for some riders is the limitation of the 14T smallest sprocket.

Just for fun, here's a picture of a restored Suntour Perfect.

A perfect Perfect!

This is a good example why "flush and dribble" is only a temporary fix for freewheel lubrication.

bikemig 

Thanks for clearing this up. I knew that you were not a fan of some of the suntour freewheels.

So 2 questions.

(1) I have an ultra 6 pro compe I just bought. It is very clean with little to no wear. The problem is that the progression is poor: 15-16-20-24-27-30. I'd like to swap the 16 out for a 17 and the 24 out for a 23 for a 15-17-20-23-27-30. I reckon finding the right cogs is going to be a long shot.

(2) The alternative is to take a new winner 7 that I have on hand: 13-26. The first two are 13-14. All I need to do is find the right outer to replace the outer two to make this an ultra 6 right? That should be easier and I think I'm going down this road. It looks like the outer on my pro compe ultra 6 won't work as the outer on the new winner 7 but the large cog on the ultra 6 (a 30 tooth) should work just fine on the new winner 7. I *think* I just need to track down a 13 or 14 tooth outer for new winner 7 and in a pinch I'll bet the outer from a new winner 6 will work.

Nice; thank you pastorbobnlnh

pastorbobnlnh 

I'm glad you have a ProCompe. it is a great freewheel that should last forever if maintained.

Answer to Question (1):

Finding a threaded 17T to replace the 16T should be easy. I'm guessing I have plenty. IIRC, when it comes to Suntour sprockets with odd number tooth counts above 22, they are rare. Occasionally I find 23T, 25T and 27T sprockets. I don't think I've ever run across a 29T, 31T, or 33T Suntour sprocket. Generally what I find is 22T, 24T, 26T, 28T, 30T, 32T, 34T and 38T (I just added this piece of information for the curious). I'll also look for a 23T.

Answer to Question (2):

On a New Winner 7 speed, the smallest sprocket is threaded into the second smallest, which than threads to the smallest diameter position on the body. These two sprockets are specific to the 7 speed set up. The threaded sprockets for ProCompe/Perfect do not fit in this position (they will fit in the larger threaded position). Based on the NW Service Chart above, you will need an S14 (there doesn't appear to be a S15) and a T17 as your second sprocket. However, on a NW, IIRC, the third sprocket is also threaded and not splined. Depending on what is on your 13-26, you might not be able to achieve a 14-17-20-23-27-30 because you will need a R20 threaded (23, 27 & 30 are splined).

bikemig 

Yep, this makes sense and thank you again. I'll just look for the right outer on my 7 to turn it into an ultra 6 by replacing the other 2 with an S14. I know I have some outers floating around. This is the cheapest and easiest way to come up with an ultra 6.

And for my pro compe ultra 6 I'm going to take your advice and just change out the 2d position as replacing the 16 with a 17 will improve the progression considerably

This thread has been a good crash course on suntour freewheels. I've fooled with them for a while on and off but I learned a lot from this thread.

pastorbobnlnh 

So, I have what you need:


L-R: Winner S15, Perfect/ProCompe 17T, Winner T17, Winner T20, Winner T21, 23T splined

The left 17 tooth is for Perfect/ProCompe. As you can see it is the same as the Winner T17s on right.

The Winner T17s and T20 have a great deal of wear. You might notice how the tooth profile is beveled on the Perfect/ProCompe 17 tooth (on left) compared to the Winner T17s (center)

I included the Winner T21 because it is NOS. None of my T17s or T20s are in good condition.

I was surprised to find the Winner S15 based on the charts posted above. But there it is.

The Winner S15, T21 and 23t, and the threaded Perfect/ProCompe 17tooth are NOS.

bikemig 

Looks like I'm buying some cogs from pastorbobnlnh

steelbikeguy

thanks for the offer. I've got a large stock of cogs and freewheels... enough that I doubt I can use them all.
It would be nice to figure out how to market some of the spare stuff to the folks looking for it, though. That's a problem that goes beyond just freewheel cogs. It would be nice to consolidate the communal stash of cogs, at least in terms of knowing who has what, so folks could know where to go.
For anyone interested, I have a spreadsheet of my spare cogs.

Steve in Peoria

steelbikeguy

I have a handful of T17s in my stash, if there is any interest.
Some gold, some brown, and some silver. All NOS, I believe.
No T20s, though.

Steve in Peoria