chrispe

I also would not get the pistola in any circumstance for this type of thing. I am the same weight and planning to do some tours and won't think for a second about buying that bike. If you do decide to with it for some odd reason though buy a frames and not a built up bike as if you buy the complete pistola the wheels are the last thing in the world you would want for this you would want a different rear derailuer able to handle more difference in gearing than the short cage rear, you would probably want a triple and then also a new front derailuer. Also if you know your putting a rack on it why buy a bike with no eyelets or rack mounts? Also no room for fenders which you might want. The pistola isn't really what you are going to want I dont think, but good luck if you decide to get it.

Enthusiast

I have a similar interest in light and fast touring from a backpacker's perspective like the OP. I will be using my father's 1972 Masi Gran Criterium frame built up with modern components. I plan on going backpacking in National Parks and Wildernesses that I come to during my tour and so will be pulling a trailer carrying my backpack. I looked into backpacking carrying handlebar/saddle bags and it did not seem desireable.

The OP already has a reliable backpacking setup, why not get a trailer so that you can go with what you know and not have so many conflicting requirements for the bike? Most folks with trailers tend to pull heavy loads but there's nothing keeping you from lightly loading the trailer or taking on extra food/water. Heck, I'm tempted to pull a cat around with me.

cyccommute 

I think you misunderstood. I like long cockpits on my bikes. But the comfort of a touring bike doesn't necessarily come from a more upright riding position. I think the longer wheel base is more important. The slightly relaxed head angle and relaxed trail also contribute.

I've ridden bikes with very short wheelbases (a late 80's Cannondale) and they are anything but comfortable. They are super quick and a blast to ride but the choppy ride will beat you to pieces. My T800 (similar construction) is more comfortable because it has more spring between the wheels.

BengeBoy 

Ah, youth!

Looks like another vote for the Pistola.

I just wanted to be the first to note that this may be the first time a Masi Gran Criterium has appeared on the touring forum.

Seriously, as noted above, though I emotionally am pulling for the Pistola (would like to see someone try something I couldn't get away with), it's probably not the most practical idea. It would really be putting an emphasis on the "fast and light" part of the OP's quest as opposed to the ruggedness/comfort part.

Cave

OK you have some ideas now.

Time to find out what size bike you need, then test-ride a bunch of bikes to see how they feel.

Why not try a LHT and a Crosscheck, seeing as they are both available as complete bikes through your shop, then try a light road bike and see what you prefer.

You can then at least say "right, no heavy tourers" or "OK, I prefer the touring geometry after all".

I think you've gotten all the useful general advice you can from this thread, we're starting to get into a bunfight between "light and fast" vs. "fully loaded and prepared for everything". Here's a link to someone who's gone further than most on light bikes: https://www2.arnes.si/~ikovse/bikes.htm

Cave

Dude, it's not that hard. I'll admit it helps if you are in a forgiving environment and have a bit of coin to drop.

Here's some of what I use for what I consider medium-weight touring. Not a complete list but you get the idea. Fits OK in 2 rear panniers, although the tent poles are a bit too long and the stove a bit bulky. I wouldn't have enough room for 3 days of food and water, but plenty of room to pick up lunch/dinner as I go.

Tarptent double rainbow - 1120 g
Mont Zodiac 350 down sleeping bag, silk liner and drybag - 900g
(Just warm enough to sleep well down to freezing if I wear thermals and a beanie. You'd want more bag if it gets colder where you are, or if you don't sleep warm.)
Thermarest prolite 3R - 360g
(Nb. too thin for me, I now fold it in half and use it under my torso)
Self-inflating pillow - ~150g

Total camping gear = ~2.5kg or 90 oz or about 5 1/2 lb. Some tents or sleeping bags weigh this on their own! I'm pretty happy with this but you could loose a bit with a lighter tent; mine sleeps two.

Trangia storm cooker 750g
(2 pots, frypan, good windshield. Too heavy and quite bulky. Thinking of replacing with a mini-trangia and a titanium cup).
Small bottle metho 150g
Plastic cup, cutlery ~200g

Cooking = ~1.1kg = 39 oz or about 2.4 lb; could be half this with lighter stove and pans.

Clothes: I don't always carry all of this. Not sure of the weights of most of it.
Shorts 1 worn + 2 carried
Socks x3
Jersey (long sleeve) x1
Long-sleeve shirt x1
Tactel singlet x1 (surprisingly warm esp. over thermals) ~90g
Thermal tops and tights x2 each (one set with sleeping gear so I ALWAYS have something dry to change into)
Windshirt (Nike running brand) ~100g
Rain pants
Epic rain/wind jacket (Mountain Designs brand) 350g
BBB booties
Gloves 1 pair short, 1 pair windproof, 1 pair wool liner gloves (the windproof pair alone get cold when they're soaked)
1 thermal balaclava
1 beanie
2 disposable shower caps
1 microfleece jumper ~350g
1 zipoff pants
1 nylon shorts

I could obviously go lighter here. This will get me through any conditions I'll see touring in Australia.


Nun and I think Bekologist have some more complete lists somewhere on the forums.

El Pelon

That's 1 mm, and you are right.

LeeG

of course one couldn't tell a difference of 1mm but given the range of bb heights across a range of different bikes can be as much as an inch lower is preferable.

robow

Whoops, I guess it wasn't a centimeter difference but 1/10 cm So I was wrong but I was right.

LeeG, I don't mean to be busting on your statement but the dogma of a lower bottom bracket being an end-all in a touring bike's stability is, in my opinion, way over played here. A 1 mm difference or a 1 cm difference or even greater is not going to be nearly as noticeable as how high you place your load on the bike and several other far more important factors. With that being said, I think many cyclocross bikes would work quite well for the OP's adventure.

LeeG

yes you are right, for me a preference doesn't imply a cut and dried deciding point. The ride and budget is what matters, not x,y,z dimensions.

Rowan

I would venture to say that fitting a trailer might not be an appropriate choice if the OP is taking only 30lbs of gear. A single-wheel BoB-style trailer is going to weigh just under a half of that alone; I don't know what a bare ExtraWheel would weigh. But the added weight would not seem to be justified to carry the light load as far as I can see.

BengeBoy 

The Extrawheel is 10 pounds, lighter than a Bob, heavier than racks. But easier on your wheels 'cause the weight is on the trailer.

Bekologist

if the OP can get rocky mountain, rocky mountain sherpas used to come with hand built wheels.


Anyway, go general touring bike geometry for a reason. I've got a classic 'light tourer' with LR brakes, big front and back bags but I'd still bring the LHT for a significant tour - no matter how little I was packing- except if i was being sagged.

staehpj1

I misunderstood? Maybe a bit

Still I have to say I am more and more doubting that I really find touring bikes more comfortable in any substantial way, at least if comfort is measured by how I feel at the end of a long fairly fast ride. That may not be the right measure for everyone, but I think it is for me. I definitely find a fairly aggressive cockpit to be more comfortable by that measure and am not so sure any of the other factors favor the touring bike all that much for me.

I don't find the cushier tires and slacker angles to be exactly a panacea when it comes to comfort either. Maybe they help, but other factors outweigh them enough that I can't feel their advantage much.

The longer wheelbase I don't see as a big comfort issue either except as it relates to the fact that the bike will be loaded and I will also need a bit of heel clearance. The heel clearance isn't too big of a deal for me since I use smallish panniers. I would agree that an extremely short wheelbase isn't ideal, but don't find fairly quick handling to be a problem.

I know that a lot of this is individual perception. I also know that a lot of it has to do with how and where you ride and how much you carry. In addition as I have said many times I don't think the bike is a very big factor in the success of a tour as long as it meets some minimal requirements of suitability. Ok, now after making so many qualifications as to make my statement meaningless ... I think the "perfect touring bike" for me would be a road bike with a bit more conservative geometry than is currently popular (maybe one of the more relaxed ones would suffice), but with room for fenders and 25-28mm tires, strong wheels, eyelets for racks and fenders, and with low gearing. Just about everything else could be pure road bike. Maybe that is a cyclocross bike; it would be at least close to what I am describing.

I would buy/build one if I thought the difference was enough to matter, but my current bike is adequate. I am tending to make choices that are a bit closer to the road bike when adjusting or replacing stuff though.

I admit that I have not toured on a bike like I am describing and I may find I am wrong if I do.

staehpj1

And it may make sense if it means that you can ride a bike that is light enough to make up for some of the weight of the trailer. If you drop 5 pounds of bike and a couple pounds of racks the weight penalty for the Extrawheel is down to 3 pounds.

I have to think it would be possible to make a trailer that weighed enough less that it would break even or have a weight advantage when used with a light bike.

jbpence

I have the extrawheel. its hard to imagine a trailer being lighter, but they (extrawheel) did it. Check out the new extrawheel voyager:

https://extrawheel.com/

scroll down a little for the weight breakdown in the voyager

the voyager is 3.9 kilos (about 8.6 pounds) - not including the panniers. Of course WITH the panniers it might be heavier than the extrawheel classic with its vinyl bags. the extrawheel voyager will pack for shipping better though.

for me, after pedaling while standing up climbing slumgullion pass in colorado from the steep side, i dont think I'll ever tour without an extrawheel again. talk about a balanced load!! the slight extra weight is totally worth it - thats my opinion, your opinion may vary.

LeeG

that's an excellent link. That's exactly what I did in most of my touring when I was light and fast. A small bag on the handlebars and a tight bundle strapped down on the rack, no cooking gear.

staehpj1

Thanks for the link and info. I wasn't aware of the Voyager. It comes very close to what I have been thinking someone should make. I even toyed with the idea of building my own.

The Voyageur could be built up using a very light wheel and probably could be gotten down close to 7 pounds. Combined with a lighter bike (road bike with a triple and a big cluster and no racks) that gets you to the break even point weight wise. You would have a real sporty bike to ride for side trips if you leave the trailer in camp.

I have tried a Yakima Big Tow (pretty much equivalent to the Bob) and was unimpressed because it was heavier than I was willing to accept. I am pretty impressed with the Voyager in concept at least. If combined with a light packing style and a lighter bike, it could be awesome for a go fast and light tour.

It would seem pretty easy to get the total weight down to 50# including bike (25# bike, 7# trailer, 18# of gear and bags) and a real weight weenie might be able to drop another 5#.

The one drawback that comes to mind is that if you ride with other folks and do pace line riding it is hard to draft really well behind a trailer.

foamy

Light and fast. This was the lightest rig I encountered. The fella was shooting for 35–45 days for the TA crossing (east–west). No cooking gear. He was in shape to do it.



A Bianchi, didn't catch the model though I notice it has canti's on it. A Volpe, perhaps?

BengeBoy 

Yes, looks like a Volpe to me...back to the OP's quest, this set-up would look similar to what he could do on a Crosscheck.

The chainstays are shorter than on a Surly LHT so smaller panniers (or smaller feet) work, big panniers + big feet, not so good (I'm sensititive to chainstay length 'cause I have pontoon-sized feet).

staehpj1

How far into the trip was he when you met him? Any idea how long it actually wound up taking. The few riders I met who were shooting for 100 or more mile per day averages had all decided that 85 miles per day (or some similar number) was more sensible. I guess that some do manage 35-45 day TAs though. I would think that you would miss a lot doing it that quick.

Machka 

That looks very much like my touring setup.

Machka 

To some, the whole point is to cross as quickly as possible, and not to stop and see anything. Take the RAAM riders, for example.

A good friend of mine did it in about 3 weeks, riding with a Randonneuring setup plus a sleeping bag ... on a single speed.

staehpj1

Yes true. RAAM riders are a pretty extreme example and really aren't "touring" by most definitions though. They also take a much more direct route.

I personally know of no tourists that wound up doing a TA in under 45 days, but I am sure there have been some. I have heard of several that did self supported XC tours with an average daily mileage of at or close to 100 miles not counting days off. Sagged it would be a much more do-able thing, but none of the sagged riders we met were doing extremely long days.

Also, it seems like any riders who want to cross the US as fast as possible would take a more direct route than the TA. It probably adds an extra 1300 miles.

robmcl

Some people are not really looking for advice. They are just looking for confirmation or praise of their idea. They don't want to hear about the unpractical or unrealistic side.

Then their are the spontaneous who want to go on long trips but don't want to do the research, planning, and preparation that people on this forum tell them.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of young people posting who have never done anything of this magnitude before. They will learn by doing. For some a long touring trip may be turn out to be an exercise in the appreciation of preparation.