erbfarm

Hi everyone

I've been looking for a bike that would handle gravel/bike packing and have looked at the Surly Straggler and Kona Rove ST. My problem is finding a good fit. The bike that has fit me the best ever was a 1980 Specialized Sequoia. The geometry was 52cm top tube, 52 cm seat tube. Perfect. I test rode the Straggler 50 cm and 52 cm frames and while the 52 cm fit my legs better (I'm a little over 5' 6") the top tube is 55 cm which is way too long for my short arms. The 50 cm frame was ok but I felt I'd need a 45 degree stem to put my arms in a comfortable position. I liked the Kona but again, couldn't get comfortable on it. My question: are there any bikes with more of a touring geometry that can handle wider/beefier tire sizes?

Thanks!
Maria

unterhausen

Kona sizing is weird. Most of them are actually much bigger than the stated size.

What tire size are you interested in?

tangerineowl

Surly frames are long in their design.


Liking the 52cm seat tube at your height makes me think you have a tall inseam? Seems you're chasing a short-reach frame/bike?


I'll get straight to the point. In my mind the ideal modern frame/bike to put you on would be a Crust Lightning Bolt in size XS:-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluelug/45612846124

The frame can be built up as 1x, 2x, (3x?). Available as a frameset, or you can have Crust build you one up.

520mm ETT. The seat tube length is lower at 483mm, but will still work with perhaps a bit longer seatpost. Stack is 548mm. Reach is 359mm.

(Considering that old Sequoia, I feel you'd be chasing a reach around 360mm in a frame).

The frameset is designed around a 650b wheel. A 42cm tyre would be ideal for paved and light gravel in my mind.
Google Groups 650b has some good reading about the ride feel of the frame.

Edit: Totally forgot about the VeloOrange Polyvalent frameset, (51cm) although its stack height may be too low for what you're chasing.
https://velo-orange.com/products/polyvalent
https://velo-orange.com/pages/polyva...sp-shimano-105
^ 51cm build. Gives you some idea of the shorter headtube/longer steerer requirement.


A couple more options: The old 2009 Singular Peregrine (disk) in a small, but they are as rare as hens teeth secondhand.

520mm seat tube length. ETT is 510mm. Side on pic of that size with crazy long seatpost:-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/singularcycles/3384874190

Fits a large 700c.


The All-City Gorilla Monsoon in a 46cm. 520mm top tube. 470mm seat tube (longer post). Stack is 542mm. Reach is 363mm.


If the 49.5 Salsa Vaya didn't have such a short seat tube (380mm!!), then it would work as well. Stack is 542mm. Reach is 354mm.
Same with the size XS Salsa Fargo. Reach is 350mm. Good if you want the bars high up. Small frame triangle though. Needs a looong seatpost.

Clem von Jones

You should try the Surly 46cm size frame which have 52cm effective top tubes. Scroll down this page and click on the geometry tab: https://surlybikes.com/bikes/midnight_special

If you bought a Midnight Special frame you could build it with 26" wheels using wide 23mm rims, shimano hubs, and run the fat 54mm Compass Rat Trap Pass or a similar tire. If you bought the complete bike it would have larger 650b wheels with 47mm tires which are okay too, but being relatively short and using shorter-lengths cranks you'll want lightweight fast tires and wheels so you generate power for climbs. The stock setup is okay but not ideal.

The photos on that page show a woman riding the 40cm frame.

For the Kona Rove SL you would require the 48cm frame size which has a 51.5cm effective top tube length.

Pay attention to the effective top tube length and ignore the seat tube length when you size bikes. You could take a tape measure with you to stores to compare sizes. Bike shops will try to sell you whatever they have stock so you have to know what size you require and be stubborn about it. Better to err on the slightly small side. I bet they don't stock many smaller sizes.

Does anyone know who sells new 26"-wheel drop-bar bikes with threadless 1 1/8" fork steerers? That's what you need.

mstateglfr 

what is touring geometry? Touring bikes come in all sorts of geometey.
if you are calling square measurements(ST and TT same length) 'touring geometry', then it'll be a tough search to find a modern frame like that. Too many bikes, especially gravel/adventure bikes, use a sloping top tube which makes the square length impossible and meaningless.

a sloping top tube will also typically give you more stack height with less reach when compared to a traditional level top tube frame with otherwise the same geometry.
this is what you describe wanting- bars up higher and less reach.


https://blackmtncycles.com/frames/mcd-frames/
for example, this frame in 44cm size gives you an effective top tube length of 530mm and a stack height of 568mm. It can git really wide tires too. The top tube length is similar to your sequoia, but more important than top tube length is knowing the seat tube angle and head tube angle as both of them play a significant part in how long a top tube feels.
2 bikes can have the same top tube length but feel quite different due to frame angles being different. So top tube length alone is not enough info.

erbfarm

I"m thinking 41-45 for tire size, somewhere in that range

erbfarm

Thanks for the info. I love the looks of that Crust. A local bike shop has a 54cm VeloOrange Polyvalent and I really like the looks of that bike too but no idea how the 51cm would fit me. I did ride the Salsa vaya and couldn't get comfortable on that one either. I think your estimates of the type of frame I'm looking for are spot on. I definitely need a shorter reach but longer seat tube.

erbfarm

Thanks! I'll check out the Midnight Special. Fortunately, I live in Portland so there are tons of Surly dealers here and it will be easy to find a Midnight Special in the frame sizes that might work for me. I haven't thought about 26" wheels before but maybe that's the way to go? I've been riding 650b for 10 years or so on everything but my beater commuter bike.

erbfarm

I guess I'm just looking for something that feels comfortable to me and my old Sequoia comes to mind as the most comfortable bike I've ever had. I also was reasonably comfortable on my 1997 Terry Classic (53 cm top tube, 53 cm seat tube). I currently own a 46 cm Surly Straggler which I like as an all-purpose bomb proof bike, but I feel very crouched and compressed on it. I've thought about trying some different stem sizes/angles but overall, I think the frame is just too small for me. The type of riding I do outside of my daily 26 mi round trip commute, is multi day bike touring on reasonably friendly bike routes. Since there is so much traffic on the roads, I've been wanting to do off-road bike multi day packing. So I'm looking for something that I can ride for an 8 hour day and different types of terrains/surfaces that will feel comfortable to me.

mstateglfr 

The MCD frame I linked would give you relatively relaxed geometry for more stability/comfort on unpaved roads like you want. It has mounts for a front and rear rack, 3 bottle cage mounts, and will fit up to 50mm tires(in 700c). Plenty strong and stable enough for unpaved loaded touring.

Another option is the road+ frame. Its designed around a 650x47 tire and also has mounts for racks. It isnt a traditional touring bike by any means, but the geometry may work for you as the reach is short relative to the stack height. I mention this since you showed interest in the midnight special which is a 650b road bike. https://blackmtncycles.com/frames/road-plus/



good luck on the search- i know how frustrating it can be sometimes as i too am on the edge of fitting stock frames, only on the opposite side of the spectrum as you.

tangerineowl

Seems like the LightningBolt v2 and the 51cm Polyvalent are sold out at the moment through the sellers.
I left out the MCD as they have a short seat tube. The smallest Road+ is the same and a bit too long.


You're in Portland so I'd be having a good look through Craigslist also.

erbfarm

Here's an update on my quest for a frame that fits me: Yesterday, I rode a 52 cm Kona Rove ST and I appreciated the height on frame. It felt much better but I still feel like I'm not getting a comfortable position overall. My legs were happy, but my arms were not. I still feel like I'm reaching too far forward and my shoulders are stretched. I also rode a 52 cm All City Gorilla Monsoon. I was on bumpy pavement and I could feel every bump. Not a smooth ride at all. Sooooo, I'm still looking. I think the long top tube (i.e. "mountain" geometry) is my issue. I've got long legs and short arms so I need height on a frame, not length. I'm wondering if there are some vintage-esque frames I might be able to repurpose for gravel-ish and bike packing uses. At this point, I'm just looking for good tire clearance (somewhere around 40 to 42's).

mstateglfr 

The 52cm Kona Rove has a stack height of 570mm and a 383mm reach.
If that reach is too much, then something like the Black Mountain MCD might be better as the frame with a comparable stack height of 568mm has a reach of only 365mm. Basically the same stack height and 3/4" shorter reach.
The other thing is you could just swap the stem out on the Kona for something 1cm shorter and perhaps get some bars that have a shorter reach.

Typically, and this is a generalization, C&V road frames wont fit your parameters of high stack height and short reach. This is due to the inherent geometry limitation of lugs. and very few would have clearance to fit gravel tires. There may be a unicorn C&V frame out there that has a tall stack height and short reach compared to everything else in its size while also accepting gravel tires, but i am not sure of a bike like that and I geek on C&V steel. If ever there were a place where such a frame exists, you are probably in the right town!

tangerineowl

Here's an old Stumpjumper with 26" wheels. Could be worth contacting the owner and asking the top tube length, as it could be too long:-
https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/...834482841.html

This Breezer has a short seat tube. Test for reach:-
https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/...820083558.html

fishboat

You're about my girlfriend's size..fitting isn't easy. You might pick the one you've looked at that comes the closest to fitting right and have them start swapping out stems (angle and length)..that's what they're for..to dial things in. Also..try the stem swaps on your Straggler. If they want to sell you a bike, they should be willing to try to make it fit.

Another option..look to mfg that have wsd lines. Giant Liv is one..they have the Invite and Brava models..the specs in a small or medium seem to come close to what you're looking for. Perhaps not the caliber of the bikes you've tried, but one of these may get you to a bike that fits. Take the stack/reach from these bikes (if they fit) and search for another bike with similar numbers. You could also measure the handlebar stack/reach of a bike that fits and see if you can match the numbers (via stem swaps) in a bike that you like, but may not fit perfect.

just spit-balling ideas..just don't get locked into trying a bike as it sits on the floor and deciding it will or won't fit...there's lots of stems out there that can make a big difference.

For the sake of a reference-data point..I bought my GF a road bike a couple years ago(53cm Bianchi Impulso Dama). We tried a number of bikes (Trek Lexa, Specialize Dolce(51 too small, 54 too big)..others..) and netted out with the Bianchi as the best-closest fit. She was still a little too stretched out (legs were great). The stock stem was a 17*/90mm I think. We swapped it out for a 35*?/50mm.. rather short stem, but the bike fits her great now & she loves it.

tangerineowl

Back again. I think I found your bike

A 49cm Masi Speciale Randonneur. Reach is 353mm. Stack is 538mm (you may want to run some spacers under the stem to tweak your fit).
(You could possibly even fit the 51cm: 364/554, by running a 10mm/15mm shorter stem than stock).

The seat tube length isn't too bad at 490mm (on the 49cm).

Rack and full-fender mounts. 650b wheel size. Comes with 48mm tyres which may be a bit heavy to start with.

32/34 low gearing; good for hills.

Price is good. The only thing I'd change out is the Promax? brakes to Yokozuna/JuinTech, with compressionless housing.

The model has been around for a couple of years/updates.

Edit: The 2019 Randonneur Elite is the latest/highest model. Comes with lights. Spyre brakes.

Here's a side-on pic of the previous year's model, which looks like a 49cm:-
https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...le-randonneur/

fishboat

Back again too.. I'm currently researching an older hybrid-bike conversion to a gravel-tourer for my GF and your issues with fit come to the forefront...that is..getting the right combo of stack & reach where stem length may be needed to dial things in, as the stack requirements drive the top tubes(and reach) on the long side. I was just watching a video from the Global Cycling Network on swapping stems and their impact on bike handling (as well as reach..). Changing stem lengths is all well and good to get a comfortable static fit, but what happens to bike handling in the mean time? If you develop a great static fit, but destroy the bike's handling..then we haven't progressed much.

Note the video itself..interesting over all..but at 9:42-ish in the video they make some comments that may be helpful. A bike designer they spoke with stated that one will not notice much difference in the handling of a long bike with a short stem vs a short bike with a long stem (I'd guess there's offsetting, inherent stabilities, relative to the rider, that net out to near-zero impact on handling). This is the case with my GF's Bianchi..long bike, short stem and she says it handles really well. We have an interesting experiment coming up in the next two days as we're traveling and renting a pair of Bianchi Impulso's..the same bike and size(53cm) she has. The rental will no doubt have a longer stem..we'll see if she notices a difference in handling.

The video:

Anywho..you may be OK, actually in a good place, with trying short stems as you tend to be trying out bikes that are long for you.

mstateglfr 

funny timing to see a post on trail as just last night I accepted I am going to buy a new gravel frame and wait in building a frame due to the limitations that a 1 1/8 steerer would give me for carbon disc forks options.
every 1 1/8 fork that would have a long enough steerer would be QR disc(I'm fine) with 40mm max tire(don't love that limitation).

so an Otso Warrakin or Fairlight Secan are what ive landed on.

the Otso is similar frame angles, bb drop, and trail to my current bike, but 1cm shorter stack and 23mm shorter reach, which is a lot.

And with the Falirlight I would have pretty much the same stack and reach as my bike, but I would go from 72deg hta and sta with 70mm of bb drop and 68mm of trail on my current gravel bike, to 72.5hta and 73.5sta with 77mm bb drop and 56mm of trail on the Secan.

certainly different frame geometry and possible riding characteristics with the Secan, but similar stack and reach.
more of a road bike that can handle big tires.





The lack of ability to free hand fillet braze a 44mm head tube within tolerance so I can use a tapered carbon fork may be the most 1st world of problems that ive come up with on a long time!

gus6464

Isn't the max stack height with spacers 40mm especially with carbon steerer tubes for safety reasons?

tangerineowl

Last time, I promise

Twin Six Standard Ti Rando in a 51cm.
I chose the ti frame (over the steel one) for the ride quality/weight and price for ti frame/build.

Reach is 363mm. Stack is 547mm. Seat tube length is 510mm !.
You could run a 10mm shorter stem if you like.
Nice bb drop at 75mm (in the bike).
Geo chart is hidden on the last page of the pics.

You could even fit the 53cm, as its reach is 366mm (run a shorter stem, again).
(They've dropped the seat tube angle to 73.5 on that size, to keep the reach only slightly longer than the 51cm).
Seat tube length on that size is 530mm. Stack is taller at 570mm.


Side-on pic of the steel 51cm on the 17th pic page:-
https://www.twinsix.com/products/sta...ant=9146431299

That frame has rear rack and fender mounts, however the fork (which is added in the purchase options) doesn't.
Its a QR frame, but I'd be fine with that. Run one myself.
So you may be able to purchase a frame without the fork, and rather choose something like the Fyxation Sparta, for example, which comes in a QR option with mounting points (straight or tapered, also).

The steel frameset option along with the Sparta fork would save you some weight. $900 for frame and fork.
Four colour choices with the steel frame.

Edit:## 2019 Marin Nicasio 2 (2x option) size 52cm.
Seat tube length is not too bad at 49cm. Stack is 564mm. Reach 363.
The 2x (along with the 1x) comes with hydraulic brakes (long shape Shimano on the 2x; drop the stem length to suit reach).
Steel frame WITH a full-carbon fork. The fork has rack and fender mounts. Same for frame.
However it comes with 700c wheels. Same frame as the 1x model, so it has the same 650b clearance though.

erbfarm

OP here again, thanks for all of the great advice everyone. I'm kind of jazzed about the VO Polyvalent now that it's back in stock. The 51cm frame seems like it would work for me and I really like the threaded headset. The 51cm takes either a 26" or 650b wheel size which I like. The only thing missing for me is the cantilever bosses Other than that, I'd be in frame heaven. I doubt I'll get to test ride one. A local shop has a 54 cm Polyvalent built up but odds are against me for finding a 51cm. Here's a question that will make some of you chuckle. I've always had downtube shifters (love friction) so what are my options for friction shifting without downtube bosses? I do like thumbies and have a cool set of Paul brand but I'm pretty sure I'll have a drop bar on whatever bike I end up with. Thoughts?

mstateglfr 

The Polyvalent frame has downtube bosses. Or is this an old pic and new frames dont have downtube bosses?

chas58

I find that going short in the stem makes my bikes pretty darty and a little more difficult to control. Dropping by 15% is reasonable, but more than that and it takes more concentration on the handling. I can simulate the effect a bit by riding with my hands inboard. (closer to the stem) - that also makes the bike pretty sensitive to steering inputs. I haven't really gone extra long on stems, but I would think that a slower handling bike may be better than one that is too darty???

erbfarm

+1 for the downtube bosses on the Polyvalent! I also like the VO Piolet frameset too. It's made for bikepacking which is pretty much what I plan on doing. Out of stock at the moment, though. I do like both framesets! The geometry on their "small" size seems like it would be a decent fit for me.

tangerineowl

Polyvalent reading and vids:-
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...0b/p6gBCsRl3lw