9794292

I recently purchased the Tacx Neo 2T on the basis of its high max resistance, only to discover I misinterpreted this metric. As a result I'm returning it. I'm simply looking for a direct drive trainer that will accommodate flying sprints that approximate the peak outputs of velodrome flying sprints for a very powerful sprinter. Turns out the Tacx Neo 2T has no program that allows for what any spin bike can do, which is set the resistance level you want and go full gas with the confidence the fly wheel won't slip, or skip, or lag, etc.


I spoke with someone at Garmin and they confirmed there's no standard way to use the Neo 2T the way I want to. I misinterpreted the 2200W max resistance as meaning it would effectively read peak power exertions up to 2200W. When, in actuality, it has that level of resistance to simulate hills for riders who possess a certain combination of bodyweight and peak power.


To be clear, I don't use zwift or any other related cycling applications, I only do pure sprint work, or zone 2 training, I'm powerful, and am just looking for a direct drive trainer that can accommodate this type of training without having to perform tedious manipulations of preset programs on some cycling app and whose flywheel/belt won't slip, skip, or power meter won't lag.


Essentially, a trainer with an accurate power meter that is suitable for maximum output sprint training whose corresponding smart phone application has a straight forward option for pure sprint work.


Does such a product exist? Thanks for any insights.

tFUnK

I dunno about flying sprints but my Wahoo Kickr has a setting where you can enter the resistance level. I think with smart direct drive trainers all the settings will need to be access via an app or compatible head unit.

9794292

Thanks, as far as an app, do you know of any that you could use to perform sprint work at the resistance level you set?


Meaning, say you wanted to perform 6 x 6sec full gas efforts at the resistance level that allows you to achieve the maximum watts, with full recoveries between each one. Is there an easy way for you to do that with the kickr and the application or computer you use? I realize the head unit would be the easiest way to monitor such a workout, however, in the absence of one is there an application that suffices well?


I realize any "dumb" trainer will get the job done, however, I'm more interested in direct drive.


I bought a used Schwinn AC Power bike a year and change ago for it's well reported power meter, however, turns out it's power meter has a huge lag time in accuracy. When I perform a full gas effort over 5-7 seconds, I doesn't show the highest wattage until the very tail end of the effort.


On your kickr, and whatever app or computer you use, are you able to get instant feedback on the watts if you provide a maximum impulse force to the pedals?


Thanks again

Barry2 

Your question is really quite technical in nature.
Judging any Power Meter (PM) for lag is an unusual request & not a huge concern for most Power Meter or Trainer users.

The most technical reviewer I know of is DC Rainmaker , but despite his reviews evaluating PM accuracy I don't know if lag is evaluated per your needs.

I will pose this question...
Are you sure you actually need to worry about PM lag ?
If the lag remains constant, the numbers you capture will still allow you to evaluate your performance and gains.

Barry


BTW Have you seen the Wahoo Race Feature?

9794292

Thanks for the response Barry.

Agreed about the technical nature of my question, hence the title of the thread.

You're correct that any captured metric, as long as it's consistent, is usable to track progress. It's just that i have a specific interest in accurately captured real time/instantaneous power output. So, essentially, it's becoming a question if there's a direct drive/bike app/or bike computer solution that most accurately approximates a Watt Bike Pro's ability to provide instantaneous power output readings in real-time.

I've looked at quite a bit of DC rainmaker's videos, however, it's challenging finding technical overviews that adequately cover the specifics of technology used predominantly, or specifically, for sprint training.

I wasn't familiar with the wahoo race feature, thanks for sharing, however, that's not what I'm looking for. The irony is that, apart from the technical aspect of instantaneous power output capture and real-time monitoring, what I'm looking for is actually must less complex of an engineering problem than what has gone into the engineering of Zwift, Strava, and all the other software simulations.

Barry2 

Race Mode was my best guess at meeting your need for immediate accuracy.

If you plan to observe the readings in realtime, I would think human lag would be the bigger issue.

Example
Using a 150psi air tank to put 70psi into a tire using a digital gauge vs an analog gauge.
The digital is a lot tougher than using an analog display.

Barry

9794292

Well said, thanks again for kicking into to the discussion.

I raised the Watt Bike pro as a great example of technology that captures this. My curiosity, as I mentioned, is whether there's any other options with direct drive, and whatever monitoring technology, that approximates what the Watt Bike does, as I already have the bikes so it would be convenient to be able to use what I already have.

Barry2 

Sorry I can't help further. You have not made your requirement clear.

You are telling us that the "Watt Bike Measures this".
OK... I'll tell you that a Kickr will measure it. (I've no real idea if it does)

But...
Now you get to tell me how the spec of the Watt Bike exceeds that of a Kickr and how you know the Kickr will fail ?

Without actual numbers/graphs/documentation you are asking for a ghost.

Barry

Note: Halloween joke included at no cost.

9794292

I appreciate the joke. No, I have zero expertise with the Kickr.

I have used the Watt Bike though, and it does exactly what I'm looking for in the sprint context (very accurate and instantaneous power metrics on the monitor in real-time), however, the Pro, because it accommodates such high output ~3700W, has a higher resistance profile even at it's lowest resistance setting. Thus, if one wants to do low intensity zone 2 work, there's a higher likelihood it will be difficult to do on the Watt bike because you're working harder even at the lowest resistance setting.

Thus, the Pro is predominantly suited for sprint or HIIT work only. The Trainer solves for the low intensity problem however it does this by shaving the top end wattage by 1000W. Even so, both are 4K USD and if I can solve this with a direct drive option I'd prefer that, as I stated, because I could use equipment I already posses.

Regarding the Kickr, and my use case, is your suggestion to use it along with a particular cycling application or headset/computer to perform the sprint work?

As I mentioned in my opening, I bought the Tacx Neo 2T thinking this would be a no brainer, and turns out it wasn't an option. Ironic, actually, that for 1500USD you can't perform simple sprint work without lag, unpredictable resistance, tedious tinkering with preset program parameters...

Koyote

OP: If you can produce 2200 watts, your sponsors should be providing suitable equipment.

RChung

I think it unlikely that any of the currently offered direct drive trainers can do what you want. The reason is that they're designed for a different purpose: mostly, they're designed to be able to alter the resistance load, and they do so by electronic control of the load generator. In addition, most current direct drive trainers are intended to be relatively quiet, and to use the rider's current bike. Without specific purpose-designed feedback control, there will always be some time lag in load response (some newer "high-frequency" models claim to poll load more frequently so that it would, in theory, be possible to design a fast response trainer, but I don't know of one at the moment that implements this well).

The Wattbike has a different target audience than any other "consumer-level" direct drive trainer.

9794292

Thanks, very helpful and makes sense.

9794292

​​​​​​Thanks, however, I'm not a competitive cyclist.

Was always a good sprinter (running), jumper, +500lb/230kg squatter...and couple years ago took interest in sprint style cycle training on an indoor trainer just for training sake (the CNS and muscular stimulation along with the ability to accurately monitor and track power output).

tFUnK

I'm not a huge indoor training geek but I found out the hard way that just buying a smart trainer alone is not enough - you'll need to get additional hardware (eg, head unit) and/or software (eg, training app like Zwift or something else) to really unlock its features.

That said, I can easily program a HIIT workout on my Kickr using either my head unit or a phone-based app. For example, you can create workouts in ERG mode where you set specific power intervals. Or you can create an interval workout based on resistance, which sounds like could be what you're looking for.

As for the lag, yes there will be lag. I found this to be app-dependent - some have less and some have weird spikes transition between the power intervals. But regardless you should be able to set up your display (either on the head unit or on the smartphone app) to show real-time power.

9794292

Thanks for the input, appreciate it. Though, while HIIT is some of what I do, the alactic or lactic power sprint work requires complete recoveries. thus, I'm curious what your choice would be to perform say, 5 x 6sec full gas at a resistance setting that would allow you to achieve maximum watts, with full (i.e. 3-5minute recoveries) in terms of how you would organize that with the setup you described?

PeteHski

When I do sprints on my Kickr Bike or Elite Direto X trainer I simply set the resistance to simulate a slight slope (1 or 2%) and then sprint in a high gear as I would outdoors. For recovery I just change into a lower gear.

Both my Elite and Wahoo trainer Apps can set the trainer resistance to simulate a flat road or slope. I would be surprised if you can’t do this with your Tacx.

9794292

I appreciate it. I already returned the Tacx yesterday as, in addition to having difficulty with what I already described, I found it tedious to even perform zone 2 work using "power" mode which allowed for preprogrammed resistance using their online cloud site, however, using the cloud site was a pain. Not sure if that's because I have a mac and it works better on windows, however, almost everything about the "user" experience for me was inconvenient, both online/with the Garmin app as well as with not being able to put to use what I consider to be an elementary use of a trainer. Again, I had a chat exchange with a rep from Garmin who confirmed I wouldn't be able to use the Tacx for my use case and they were sending their engineers a note about this limitation of the product.

The more feedback I've received in this thread, in addition to the more I think about, the Wattbike Pro is making more sense at this point.

tFUnK

Agree with PeteHski

Here is an example of how one could set up interval workouts:

These are created using a third party app called KinoMap and you can create interval workouts in either ERG ("WATTS" in KinoMap lingo) or resistance ("SLOPE").

I'm trying to think about why this would not work for you:
5 mins warmup (resistance set to 0 - simulating flat road)
5 mins of easy riding (resistance set to 0 or 1 - simulating flat to slight uphill)
10s of max effort (resistance set to 0-max - though I wonder if you can't just keep resistance at 0 or 1 and just change your effort 🤔 is the concern that you won't be able to hit your max power output of the resistance is too low? If this is the case I think as PeteHski mentioned you can just change gears?)
Repeat as desired.

You can even take a session that you'd typically do on the track: x laps warmup (translate this into time), sprint effort (in time), y laps recovery (time), etc., and build a workout around that.

In the screenshot above, I've tried to simulate a route that I normally ride outdoors by setting the resistance profile to match the elevation profile of the actual route ("Abridged ARP Sim" in SLOPE mode).

9794292

I appreciate it. In the end, the fault is mine for not contacting Garmin with my query before buying.

Regarding the kinomap, I wasn't even aware of that, however, for 1500USD (what I paid including tax for the tacx) and not being able to get on the bike and sprint as desired without going through a relatively time intensive process of preprogramming, and paying for whatever subscription based application, while still dealing with the lag in instantaneous response time...I'm heading towards a Wattbike pro.

Ironically, I was communicating with Wattbike a few years ago on this very subject and probably made the mistake of not buying one then. I purchased a used Schwinn AC power (touted for it's accurate power meter) summer of 22, however, that has a significant lag in response time and I think I might have broken something in it with my full gas efforts because it locks up on me at certain resistance setting and impulses. After 6-8 seconds it will show me the highest watt reading, however, my cadence reaches its max in half that time or less. So I never know what peak I'm actually hitting and, as far as I've learned, the Wattbike might be the only product that satisfies the criteria of instantaneous power readings, combined with its high ceiling for max watts and structural robustness.

son_of_clyde

This thread might contain some info of interest: https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...oor-cycle.html

9794292

I appreciate it. I actually read that thread in mid 2022 and considered going that route, before I purchased the Schwinn AC Power, and ultimately made a different choice looking for a "turn key" solution. In hindsight this was a mistake, as I previously described. Also, as far as buying used goes, it seemed as if the market got the message because many of those used Cycleops bikes were/are selling for comparable sums as used Wattbike pros. Thus, it raises the question if the price is comparable between a used Cycleops Pro 300PT and a used Wattbike Pro, what are the views from the track sprinters?