Gav888

Hi,

Just wanted some advice if possible, 2 months ago I had a professional bike fit from a guy that comes with a lot recommendations from locals and also some top professionals as he used to work for Team Sky for a few years as a bike fitter, so he knows his stuff, anyway since the fit I just cannot get comfortable on the bike due to saddle issues/numbness/pain although the overall fit seems ok.... the issues as numbness in the groin and also pain/ache from the sit bones area, probably in front of the sit bones if it makes sense, although I dont feel like I am actually on my sit bones as they dont ache....

I havent been able to ride more than an hour since the fit due to be uncomfortable so I havent really tested it on 4 or 5hr rides, so I dont know if the overall fit is good or not, but on 1hr rides the fit feels ok just saddle problems and sometimes lower back problems as well, but that could be due to the saddle - well that is what he said anyway.

I have spoken to him a few times now since the fit and he said the position on the bike is correct so dont change it, and that I just need to keep trying different saddles until the right one fits you.

Fair enough I thought, but the problem I am facing is that I have tried the whole Fizik range (he recommended the Antares for me by the way due to my flexibility) and quite a few others I have borrowed off mates and every saddle has the same problem, when I level it front to back I just want to fall forward all the time and I have to keep sliding back on the saddle, the only way to get comfortable on a saddle is to get the rear wide part you sit on to be at 0 degrees... ie so the nose is up and the back part is flat, only then do I not want to fall forward and it feels like I can get on with riding the bike instead of constantly shifting and supporting my upper body.

I have tried various saddle positions as well, ie moved it forward 1cm and back 1cm from where he set it, also lowered the nose and also raising the bars and using a 2cm shorter stem, but no matter combination I use I just want to fall forward unless the rear part is flat. I found that raising the bars actually gave me lower back ache, but again it might have just been the saddle??

So I am thinking either I need a perfectly flat saddle nose to tail or something is wrong with my bike position?

Any recommendations as I am getting serious fed up with try saddles and just not being comfortable and I really dont want to fork out another ton of money on another bike fit, when I have already spent a ton on this fit, plus custom insoles which he recommended and some physio work leading up to the fit due to prior achilles issues....

Cheers

k_kibbler

Is your new position very different from how you used to ride?

Are you and the fitter in agreement about your riding experience and the type of rider you are and types of rides that you intend to do?

I would venture a guess that your new fit is longer and lower than before, and you're tilting instead of bending forward at the hips and rolling forward and off of your sit bones?

It is a bit alarming that a supposedly reputable fitter would tell you that the fit is right when you're obviously uncomfortable.

Lazyass

If you've tried the whole Fizik range and still hurt that tells me it's still probably a saddle tilt issue. You may be adjusting it too much at once. One millimeter, even a half can make a difference for me. If your groin is going numb the nose is probably too high. Adjust it a tiny, tiny amount at a time until you find the perfect balance of no pain and not sliding off the front.

Heathpack 

I would agree that this circumstance sounds strange to me. I would expect he would fit you to the equipment you have. If your equipment would not work in his opinion, I would think he would tell you to get a new saddle (say) and then provide follow-up fit. Are you guys on the same page as to what position on the bike makes sense for you, based on your riding/goals, experience level, flexibility, equipment, etc? Did you even discuss this? I could see that he was a fitter for a professional race team, perhaps he does not appreciate that many amateur cyclists, especially newer cyclists (no idea if you at new or a veteran), cannot be put into the same position on the bike as a pro would be.

I guess what is wrong in all this IMO is that your fit is uncomfortable and he's left it up to you to figure it out on your own. That's what you paid him to do.

I am like Goldilocks with my bars. Mostly my fit is great, but my bars are not perfect. I want 70mm reach, compact with 120mm drops, 38 cm wide, carbon, with flat/contoured tops. As far as I know, my ideal bar does not exist. I explain to my fitter why my bars are not perfect, he listens to me, tells me I am right I just need new bars and when I get them put them on the bike, then if I have any issues, swing by, and he will check them and make sure they are right. That's how it's supposed to go.

ClarkinHawaii

These are the saddles I use. You can raise the nose sufficiently so that you don't keep sliding forward, and the huge cutout keeps your jewels happy. Amount of padding varies by model--you'd have to experiment to determine what's best for you personally.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sell...w=1027&bih=467

Gav888

Cheers guys, I will try and sum up your questions and add some more details...

So my position at present is fairly different to how it used to be. My saddle height has always been 76cm BB to saddle top as its what felt comfortable, and during the fit he set me up 1mm higher, my fore and after is about 1cm further forward than where it used to be but my bars are 2.5cm lower and 2cm further away, so as you say k_kibbler its like I am too forward causing my to come off my sit bones and onto the bit infront of my sit bones and giving me numbness as im rolling forward too much?? But, I have raised the bars and put a shorter stem on it but the saddle still isnt right. Previously my saddle was 3 degrees up and with the bars higher and closer to me, he said I was too upright so he rotated me forward to get in the right position and said my existing saddle that came with the bike (which was an Arione) wasnt right and didnt support me properly and to try a Fizik Antares as its for my flexibility. My old fit had done me ok for 4 years, but I suspect overuse injuries last year caused a bit of a nightmare for me so I wanted to get a pro fit to be sure I was sitting ok etc...

Prior to the fit he did a physio assessment going over my riding goals, previous injuries and flexibility etc. He saw no issues with my flexibility to put me in that position. During the fit he told me not to use my Arione anymore and put a test saddle on the bike, which was the Antares and said post fit get one asap and dont use the Arione anymore.

I did use the Antares as recommended, it didnt work for me, it felt wide enough but not flat enough to stop me falling forward, I also tried another Arione R3 to see if it was any different to my Arione Classis, it was harder, but otherwise the same, the Aliante was lovely to sit on, but the nose was too high so caused numbness, plus I tried some of the vs range as well, same issues.

When testing the Fizik saddles and the others I do make very small adjustments as even a 1/4 of a turn makes a big difference... its painful doing so much testing, but so far nothing works..... well, the Aliante was comfy to sit on and would have been ideal only if the profile was flat rather than how it is, rear up if the nose is level. This is assuming the fit is right...

I assume as most saddles have a slight rear up profile to them that your sit bones goes on this bit (widest part) and it supports you, ie, taking the Fizik range the Arione is flatter as its for more flexible people, so they sit on it and use their spine flex to reach the hoods, and the Aliante is for less flex people hence a higher rear so you dont have to use so much spine flex to reach the hoods as the saddle supports you more.... but for me, they all cause me to fall forward and only when the rear portion is flat do I not fall forward...

I have also fudged my Arione in such a way that the side profile is perfectly flat, and I can ride it for a few hours, but I get numbess, so I am thinking with a hole in the middle and/or a wider rear bit to sit on a flat profile saddle would be ok, but ir surprises me that virtually all saddles have a rear up profile, yet this doesnt work, which makes me question my fit??

rpenmanparker 

This thread reminds me of the old Mark Twain quotation about watches. You have one, you always know what time it is. You have two, you are never sure. By paying a fitter OP has acquired an imaginary responsibility to not just keep himself happy but the fitter as well. Or at least to follow the principles according to which the fitter operates. When you fit yourself, you only have to answer to yourself. Feels bad? I don't think so. Feels good? Let's do it.

Professional fittings can be very valuable, but only for folks whose personal opinion about what is right doesn't conflict with the fitter's.

Gav888

Just to add, the bike shop where I am hiring the Fizik saddles from also does Selle, so I will be getting one of there saddle fits done and buying one of them to see how I get on, the guy said he has never had a Selle returned after a fit as they are happy customers... be interested to see how he does me with.

Pps, I have thought that as he has put me more forward than I used to be, including my fore and after, could my balance just be too far forward and I need to move the saddle rearward which would make the rear up style saddles more comfortable?? If that is the case, that would then result in a shorter stem and a unhappy bike fitter as he told me not to touch the fit!

Gav888

Good quote and yeah I am trying not to go against what an experience fitted has told me as he knows best (or I would hope he does) hence paying a lot of money for the fit, I didnt want to then change it back to what I thought was right as it was a waste of money getting a fit done, and me fitting myself previously ended up causing me issues. I am hoping the fit is right and this is just a saddle issue and I unfortunately just need to keep on trying different saddles, but little things here and there and from research I have done make me question things, hence this post

rpenmanparker 

One possibility is to return to your previous fore-aft position for the saddle, then change the stem extension to match the change to the saddle. Change nothing else. So you would keep the same long and low position but just where you seem to prefer it relative to the bottom bracket. What you are describing is what I feel when I have my saddle too far forward. I am always trying to get further back, and when I do, I am not on the right part of the saddle, I am sitting on the back edge.

Lazyass

May need to try lowering your saddle, even if your knee angle is more than what the experts say it should be.

k_kibbler

++ to rpenman. I'd put the saddle back to where it was before, and gradually go longer and lower by adjusting the stem and spacers. Your glutes/ass/lower back as a system may well be physically flexible enough for what the fitter had in mind, but it takes time to get used to keeping certain parts in place (ass and sitbones) and stretching other parts (lower back). It also sounds like you're not used to having so much weight on your hands/arms/shoulders, ergo feels like you're falling forward all the time. Takes time to get used to that, too.

Personally I would not be too concerned about "wasting" the cost of the fitter by deviating from his fit, but I can see what you mean, and in that case why not ask him to jot down the measurements of his fit: BB-seat, setback, saddle to bar distance and drop, etc., so that you can reproduce it or incrementally ease towards it in the future.

Gav888

Cool, if its the case that im still getting used to the new fit and some weight on my hands is to be expect at the mo, why the F didn't he tell me that... he said a couple of short easy rides and your good to go in your new fit, well that was 2 months ago and ive been riding 4 times a week...

I have all the fitments from pre fit and post fit so its easy to swap between them...

rpenmanparker 

One more thing needs to be said. Just as in every profession, even the best practitioners make mistakes. This isn't a perfect world. The fitter may have just gotten it wrong at least in one aspect like knee to bottom bracket relationship. It happens. OP, you have to be open to that possibility.

CliffordK

So, how comfortable were you BEFORE getting the proper fit?

I tend to like a fair amount of drop in the nose of the saddle, otherwise it does get a bit uncomfortable.

dvdslw

You say the pain is more in the groin area and not the sit bones so that tells me you either need a cutout in your saddle or need to work on your flexibility. Your lbs has the Selle saddles to demo and I would bet the Selle Italia slr flow would be a good fit for you, it's very flat and close to the specs of the Arione you were comfortable on before the fit (Arione 132x300 - slr flow 131x275) but the slr has a 25mm shorter nose and cutout for the area giving you trouble. I ran into the same issue as I got lower on my bike, as I rolled forward I felt more pressure in my groin area to the point I'd have pain after rides but was able to just tilt the nose of the saddle down combined with stretching my back daily to fix my issue. Someone on the forum a while back had me try this exercise and once I did it just made sense, sit on a chair or barstool and try to sit as upright as possible keeping your back straight (body builder pose) and roll forward all the while paying attention to the pressure in your groin. Now do it again but this time relax your back and hunch over while you roll forward, you should feel a lot less pressure the second time. Keeping your back straight simulates no flexibility and you feel almost immediate pressure as you roll forward. I see two options here, try a saddle with a cutout or move everything back to square one and incrementally move things toward the pro fit as you get more flexible.

denvertrout

When I have changed my bike setup, and have done it properly, it feels different of course, but also better immediately. Doesn't matter what the "pro fitter" might say. If it isn't working, which is obviously the case it is not right for you.

intransit1217

I know how frustrating getting the tilt right can be. Not that you want to spend a heap of money any more, but my road bike has a really nice seat post.

The two bolts that secure the seat, one is threaded upward in the rear and the other is threaded downward in the center accessible through the groove in the seat. I can quarter turn loose the rear and quarter turn tighten the front and the nose goes down just a smidge. Reverse the scenario for up tilt. Post's aren't cheap so this is only a suggestion.

CliffordK

I agree. You have all the notes from the fitter, so you can replicate the fit.. but find something that is comfortable.

When I built my Litespeed with low bars... substantially lower than my old Colnago that I had ridden for decades, it took a few weeks and a couple of 100+ mile rides to get used to them. I can't say that anything is properly dialed in to the nearest mm though

roadwarrior

Read all the notes, a lot of info...not totally sure what the big issue is...

It did not sound to me like there was much adjustment in saddle height. With the crotch numbness that could be tied to more drop. 2.5cm additional drop is a lot. And if you went from a, say 110 to a 130 stem, that stretches you out and moves you downward. One mm in seat height is not much.

To do that much additional drop I'd be curious how flexible you are. We usually check flexibility because that will translate into how much drop you can stand. Problem is the fitter probably changed your stem to make those adjustments and you are pretty much stuck unless you have your old stem.

Seat-wise, certainly the additional drop puts more pressure on your crotch. A cut out really won't help. And the Aliante has an upward curve near the nose and typically holds a rider in one main spot (which is why I don't use that saddle). I use the Antares because I like the wider sitting area...that might be a better solution. Also, make sure it is level. I (and this is just me here) do not advocate tilted saddles. Generally if someone needs the saddle tipped it's because of some other fit issue.

And this is pure speculation based on trying to read through what you posted.

Know that if you flipped your stem over to more upward (I am assuming it is level or downward) you reduce the reach. But it really sounds to be like you are trying to reach lower and longer and the further over you go the more pressure you put on your crotch...without increasing your flexibility.

No clue if any of this helps.

Gav888

Cheers, yeah it make sense, as do the other posts as well guys.

Just to answer some of your questions, 2.5cm drop is a lot compared to what it was before, previously I was too up right, my back angle is now in the correct range, I went from a 80cm stem to a 100cm. Here are some of my angles as per the retul report.

knee angle flexion 110deg
knee angle extension 39deg
knee forward of foot -5mm
hip angle closed 65deg
hip angle open 110deg
elbow angle 170deg
back angle 48deg
shoulder angle to elbow 79deg

So all of these are within the acceptable range he said, previously my angles were:

knee angle flexion 112deg
knee angle extension 41deg
knee forward of foot -6mm
hip angle closed 68deg
hip angle open 114deg
elbow angle 177deg
back angle 54deg
should angle to elbow 76deg

So looking at it, there isnt a lot in it. Saddle was 1mm higher, setback was actually -70mm to -68mm, bar stop -2.5cm, step +2cm, saddle angle 0 at the fit, reach is 54cm and 51cm before, bar drop was 6.7cm and now 9.5cm, grip reach +3cm.

The above saddle position is with a Antares, you mentioned you use a Antares, but it doesnt work for me, when levelling the saddle front to back as he setup I feel like im falling forward, this didnt happen during the fit as it was a 15 second ride that he monitored and on the trainer it felt ok, but out on the road after an hour ive had enough....

Lazyass

Your pelvis may not like how much you're extending your leg, everyone's body is different and no fitter can tell you what your body likes. I had to drop mine 1.5cm lower than what I was fitted for. Before that I had the same issues as you. You seem to have tried everything else, so I don't know man try it or not, it's your butt. I wouldn't get too caught up in all the numbers.

Fly2High

just a thought, is it possible that with your new position, the reason you feel like you are falling forward is because you have taken some amount of weight off your saddle?

Are you looking to carry more weight on the saddle than the fitter has set you up with?

Frank

UnfilteredDregs

You're not getting what you paid for.

Part of a fit is determining the right saddle.

You paid to be fit and for him to leave it to you to do the grunt work in regards to saddle is ridiculous.

Contact points are everything. From what you've written it sounds to me that he didn't fit you as much as he proverbially jammed a square peg (you...) into a round hole.

You can't ride your bike more than an hour? Lower back problems? Numbness? Soft tissue pain? 15 second test ride?

You should have rolled away from your fit feeling better than previously.

How much time was spent with you during this fit process?

Guy owes you a service and you haven't received it.

pdedes

Your fitter essentially has lowered your saddle and extended and lowered your reach. If you can, try a 90 mm stem, same stem angle. That will allow you to accommodate guests slightly lower saddle and perhaps help you grow into the longer lower position.