Wabi Classic frame issues
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Wabi Classic frame issues (resolved)
Has anyone ordered from Wabi recently and encountered issues? My BB shell threads had a lot of paint overspray, incorrectly aligned threads in the BB shell, and the rear triangle seems to be outside standard tolerances for alignment. Took them 2 months to ship my frame so when I finally got it I was pretty dismayed by all these issues. Can't mount any of my cranks as the NDS arm hits the chainstay. I emailed them a few days ago and am still awaiting a response.
EDIT: Got in touch with one of the owners and we have come to a resolution! I should mention he did offer to have the frame shipped back to Wabi, but we decided to just resolve it here with reimbursement as it cost both parties less money.
EDIT: Got in touch with one of the owners and we have come to a resolution! I should mention he did offer to have the frame shipped back to Wabi, but we decided to just resolve it here with reimbursement as it cost both parties less money.
Last edited by Point4ska; 03-21-18 at 07:48 AM.
#2
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
Has anyone ordered from Wabi recently and encountered issues? My BB shell threads had a lot of paint overspray, incorrectly aligned threads in the BB shell, and the rear triangle seems to be outside standard tolerances for alignment. Took them 2 months to ship my frame so when I finally got it I was pretty dismayed by all these issues. Can't mount any of my cranks as the NDS arm hits the chainstay. I emailed them a few days ago and am still awaiting a response.
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
My measurements aren't 100% accurate as I'd like to wait until Wabi responds before I pay a LBS to use their alignment gauge, but from what I gather the rear triangle is shifted 5 or 6 mm outside of what's standard. I measured my chainline to be correct (42mm) and there is a difference in clearance for the crank arms as the drive side is able to just barely clear the chainstay but the non drive side smacks right into it. The track end spacing seems off as well as they measure 125mm instead of 120mm.
#4
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
My measurements aren't 100% accurate as I'd like to wait until Wabi responds before I pay a LBS to use their alignment gauge, but from what I gather the rear triangle is shifted 5 or 6 mm outside of what's standard. I measured my chainline to be correct (42mm) and there is a difference in clearance for the crank arms as the drive side is able to just barely clear the chainstay but the non drive side smacks right into it. The track end spacing seems off as well as they measure 125mm instead of 120mm.
If you suspect that the chain/seat stays are shifted off to one side or the other (off center) you can check that yourself to confirm and to be prepared for communication with Wabi. Are you familiar with the string method? Scroll down a bit.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yikes.
If you suspect that the chain/seat stays are shifted off to one side or the other (off center) you can check that yourself to confirm and to be prepared for communication with Wabi. Are you familiar with the string method? Scroll down a bit.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
If you suspect that the chain/seat stays are shifted off to one side or the other (off center) you can check that yourself to confirm and to be prepared for communication with Wabi. Are you familiar with the string method? Scroll down a bit.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
#6
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
Gotcha. Well that sucks. So it looks like the NDS is the culprit since the crank arm is hitting and the dropouts are at 125. Frames can get squashed in shipping, but it's kind of impossible to spread them. You've got a strong position that it left Wabi like that.
I'm interested in seeing how this plays out, so I hope you post here again regarding how it was resolved.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Please do post back throughout this issue. I'm sure most of us are curious to see how this all gets managed by Wabi. Sorry about your new bike.
Likes For rEVOLVED:
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Gotcha. Well that sucks. So it looks like the NDS is the culprit since the crank arm is hitting and the dropouts are at 125. Frames can get squashed in shipping, but it's kind of impossible to spread them. You've got a strong position that it left Wabi like that.
I'm interested in seeing how this plays out, so I hope you post here again regarding how it was resolved.
I'm interested in seeing how this plays out, so I hope you post here again regarding how it was resolved.
#9
Veteran Racer
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ciudad de Vacas, Tejas
Posts: 11,760
Bikes: 32 frames + 80 wheels
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1337 Post(s)
Liked 765 Times
in
432 Posts
Wow, this is the kind of problem I might expect from bikesdirect, but not with Wabi. In fact, the dropouts on my Kilo WT were spaced at 125mm, but I was able to coldset them back to 121mm and add a 1mm spacer to my hub axle to fix the problem. In case you wonder how this can happen, the frame is welded in a jig, but if the tubing isn’t heated evenly, you can get thermal strain buildup, and as soon as the frame is removed from the jig, the stays can spring apart changing the dropout spacing.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,909
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 3,932 Times
in
2,557 Posts
If it were me, I wouldn't get too bent out of shape re: the track end spacing as cold setting is easy and commonly done. Bigger issue is the cranks. 5 mm out at the hub makes less than half that at the crank end. If the left crank is hitting, that isn't the chainstay unless it is way off. I'd do some research and see if the bottom bracket is square with the frame.
I have never considered how to check this so I am shooting from the hip here, but I would first lay a straight edge along the BB shell face (or better, the face of the cup of a non-sealed bottom bracket) and see how far from the head tube it is. (This is approximate at best. The BB shell may well not be faced or have uneven paint on it. A very small amount of play in between the cup and shell would make a large difference at the head tube.
Another approach: put in a bottom bracket; cartridge or no doesn't matter. Thread a long bolt into the axle instead of the short crank bolt. Now you should be able to use a square to see if the bolt is at a true right angle to the frame. (Not knowing what type square you have, I am not going to suggest an approach. Be aware that if you lay the square over any two tubes on the frame,you will have a little error since most are slightly different diameters. Maybe look down on the frame, lay the square along the top tube and sight along it to see if the BB bolts is parallel to it.) This does assume the drilling of the crank bolt is straight. An easy way to check that would be to rotate the spindle for the other side and look for wobble of the bolt. You could still use it even with wobble. Set up your square and see to it that the variation with the bolt is the same but in the other direction after you rotate the spindle 180 degrees.
BB not being square to the rest of the frame would be a complete no-go for me under any circumstances.
Again, all this is completely shooting from the hip and is just ideas. Best approach is probably one I haven't thought of yet.
Ben
I have never considered how to check this so I am shooting from the hip here, but I would first lay a straight edge along the BB shell face (or better, the face of the cup of a non-sealed bottom bracket) and see how far from the head tube it is. (This is approximate at best. The BB shell may well not be faced or have uneven paint on it. A very small amount of play in between the cup and shell would make a large difference at the head tube.
Another approach: put in a bottom bracket; cartridge or no doesn't matter. Thread a long bolt into the axle instead of the short crank bolt. Now you should be able to use a square to see if the bolt is at a true right angle to the frame. (Not knowing what type square you have, I am not going to suggest an approach. Be aware that if you lay the square over any two tubes on the frame,you will have a little error since most are slightly different diameters. Maybe look down on the frame, lay the square along the top tube and sight along it to see if the BB bolts is parallel to it.) This does assume the drilling of the crank bolt is straight. An easy way to check that would be to rotate the spindle for the other side and look for wobble of the bolt. You could still use it even with wobble. Set up your square and see to it that the variation with the bolt is the same but in the other direction after you rotate the spindle 180 degrees.
BB not being square to the rest of the frame would be a complete no-go for me under any circumstances.
Again, all this is completely shooting from the hip and is just ideas. Best approach is probably one I haven't thought of yet.
Ben
#11
Full Member
re: Paint overspray, are you sure it's not the ED coating that they add inside the frame? The coating looks like a thin black powder coat, but shouldn't be enough to mess with the BB threads.
Sounds like you got a bunk frame. No doubt they'll swap it out for you, but I'd be more worried for Wabi if they got an entire batch from the factory in this condition.
Sounds like you got a bunk frame. No doubt they'll swap it out for you, but I'd be more worried for Wabi if they got an entire batch from the factory in this condition.
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I hope so, they've been responding to my friend's emails pretty quickly in the last few days but it's been almost 4 days and I haven't heard back.
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Finally received a response after sending a follow up email this morning. I have to say I am rather disappointed.
The cranksets I have tried either use a 109mm BB (DA 7600 and Sugino 75 which many builds on pedalroom use) or an external BB so I'm not sure where 107mm BB came from. A spacer is a potential solution for clearance, but would throw off my chainline and does not address the core of the problem. My issue has apparently been passed on to another tech, but the fact that they did not address at all the fact that the threads were incorrectly tapped and that the rear triangle came misaligned is worrying.
This doesn’t occur with our crank sets on a Classic frame. The only solution is to use a spacer on the non-drive side or a 107mm bottom bracket.
#15
Full Member
Is there no return policy that would allow you to send the frame back (like withing 60 days etc.)? Or is it cancelled out because you got custom paint?
Yea you could take the frame to a competent LBS that knows steel to re-align it, but that shouldn't come out of your pocket.
Yea you could take the frame to a competent LBS that knows steel to re-align it, but that shouldn't come out of your pocket.
#16
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Is there no return policy that would allow you to send the frame back (like withing 60 days etc.)? Or is it cancelled out because you got custom paint?
Yea you could take the frame to a competent LBS that knows steel to re-align it, but that shouldn't come out of your pocket.
Yea you could take the frame to a competent LBS that knows steel to re-align it, but that shouldn't come out of your pocket.
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#18
Veteran Racer
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ciudad de Vacas, Tejas
Posts: 11,760
Bikes: 32 frames + 80 wheels
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1337 Post(s)
Liked 765 Times
in
432 Posts
I think Richard is now just acting as a “consultant”, but has no control or authority over company management. I doubt he has any involvement in day to day operations. It sounds like the person(s) who contacted you are pretty clueless.
#19
Jedi Master
Just pick up the phone and call them. I'm sure they will sort it out eventually, but their digital customer service isn't as good as it used to be when you could just send an email to Richard and he would respond the same day.
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'm not in the US so long distance charges and timezone differences make it a bit difficult to give them a call.
#21
Jedi Master
That's one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard. Toronto is one hour different than Oklahoma and you can make unlimited skype to landline calls from Canada to the US for $3/month. Have them call you back if you're worried about the three bucks.
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I haven't used skype in ages, did not know you could make phone calls long distance with it to non skype numbers. In any case there is no need to get apprehensive. The 1 hour time difference makes it so that their working hours are bracketed by mine in addition to other responsibilities it means I don't have frequent access to my phone. I generally work 7 days a week and cannot take calls while at work but can use email which is why I opted for that.
#23
Your cog is slipping.
#24
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
Finally received a response after sending a follow up email this morning. I have to say I am rather disappointed.
The cranksets I have tried either use a 109mm BB (DA 7600 and Sugino 75 which many builds on pedalroom use) or an external BB so I'm not sure where 107mm BB came from. A spacer is a potential solution for clearance, but would throw off my chainline and does not address the core of the problem. My issue has apparently been passed on to another tech, but the fact that they did not address at all the fact that the threads were incorrectly tapped and that the rear triangle came misaligned is worrying.
The cranksets I have tried either use a 109mm BB (DA 7600 and Sugino 75 which many builds on pedalroom use) or an external BB so I'm not sure where 107mm BB came from. A spacer is a potential solution for clearance, but would throw off my chainline and does not address the core of the problem. My issue has apparently been passed on to another tech, but the fact that they did not address at all the fact that the threads were incorrectly tapped and that the rear triangle came misaligned is worrying.
What is wonky with the BB threading? I doubt the threading is causing the crank arm issue. One reason is that you know that the triangle is off center. The other reason is that Wabis are know for having issues with some cranks. IIRC the Omniums will make contact too.
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I know you don't want to hear this, and I know you shouldn't have to do it, but fixing the rear triangle is really easy. You don't need and LBS or any special tools, and it can be done without harming the paint.
What is wonky with the BB threading? I doubt the threading is causing the crank arm issue. One reason is that you know that the triangle is off center. The other reason is that Wabis are know for having issues with some cranks. IIRC the Omniums will make contact too.
What is wonky with the BB threading? I doubt the threading is causing the crank arm issue. One reason is that you know that the triangle is off center. The other reason is that Wabis are know for having issues with some cranks. IIRC the Omniums will make contact too.
Yeah, I'm not looking to get unreasonable or anything. What I was told by my shop is that the non drive side threading does not align with the drive side, this has been since solved as they were able to run a tap and straighten it out. I deliberately avoided omniums to provide clearance, but assumed Sugino 75s or DA 7600s would fit given all the builds. I also tried a set of external suginos, but I expected those not to fit as they require similar clearance as omniums.
I just don't really feel comfortable doing it myself. I would be happy if they simply reimbursed the cost of having the threads fixed and the triangle re-aligned (which is less than the cost of mailing it back to wabi). Ultimately it's the culmination of many small issues that have me frustrated. Missing the promised delivery by a mile without being notified until I reached out, missing headset piece, messy paint job, sloppily tapped threads, and spread triangle.
I will try to reach out to them by phone as that seems to be the preferred method of contact, and hopefully we can reach a solution that is amenable to both parties.
Last edited by Point4ska; 03-20-18 at 10:29 AM.