Bald Paul

Group rides tend to be listed as either "drop" or "no-drop" rides.

If you sign up for a Drop ride, you had better know the route in advance and be capable of the advertised ride speed, because if you get dropped for whatever reason (mechanical, can't keep pace, etc) you're going to be on your own from then on. No one is coming back to look for you. For all they know, you were stopped by the side of the road and were abducted by aliens.

"No Drop" rides usually will have a posted average pace of between X and Y. Those within the group riding at X pace will watch the faster riders pull away. Some miles up the road, they will catch up to the group that is waiting for them at a stop sign, turn, top of a hill, etc. Once they catch up, the group will proceed again, and the process starts all over.
I've been on these rides in the past, and one thing I've noticed is that if there is a rider new to group riding (usually a casual rider looking to join a club, for instance) that is constantly riding to catch up to the group, they don't return for next week's ride. If you're going to be riding alone most of the time, why not just ride alone? At least they won't feel guilty about 'holding up' the group. I like to call this type of ride the "Drop and Stop" variety. Really, it's a "no one gets lost or left behind due to mechanicals" ride.

There are very few true "No Drop" rides, it seems, where the group pace between X and Y is there so riders know they should be capable of riding at that pace, but the group stays together and rides at the pace of the slowest rider in the group, as long as they maintain X pace. After all, it's much easier for a faster rider to ride more slowly than it is for a slower rider to speed up to stay up. In the past, I've led this type of ride. The group average was 0.1 MPH lower than the upper limit advertised, and I had one rider complain that the pace was too slow. I asked why he didn't join the next fastest group, and he told me he didn't want to get dropped.

What are your thoughts and preferences?

Koyote

I've done a gazillion 'no drop' rides of the sort you described. When the faster riders stop at the regroup points, some of them will typically ride back to rejoin the slower riders...Which allows them to get a few more miles and keep their legs warmed up.

I now live in a place with a small group ride which is pretty brutal -- a new rider may get a break here and there, and they once stopped briefly when I took a little tumble on some rough terrain, but otherwise it is "no drop." One evening, a rider who routinely would fall behind started calling our cell phones...Finally someone answered, and the rider told us that he'd gotten a puncture and didn't have a spare tube -- he was a couple miles back up the road. We were waaay out in the country, on gravel roads, no help in sight. We left a spare tube for him next to a road sign and took off.

LarryMelman

I have led a weekly group ride for almost 10 years that draws from 5-20 riders each week. Initially I called it no-drop (in contrast to our club's big ride which is a free-for-all). But there is disagreement about exactly what that means. Some insist that it means "the pace is determined by the slowest rider" which I do not abide by. About 5 years ago I quit using the term and posted this description on our club site: "XYZ is intended to be a social group ride at a typical speed of 15-17 mph. All are welcome, but any rider significantly faster or slower than the group pace should plan to be responsible for their own navigation." Several leaders in our club follow this policy. The leader sets the pace and generally leads for all or most of the ride.

We stop for flats. Usually everyone waits, but sometimes a group will split off and head for the finish line or a planned rest stop.
If we've been riding several miles on a straight run, at the next turn I will pull over until everyone catches up. Usually this is not an issue because the group stays together.
Many of my riders are going to e-bikes so riders not being able to keep up is less of a concern.
And most people have Garmin's or a phone navigation app now, so there is less worry about dropped riders getting truly lost.

tomato coupe

You can't have a valid discussion about what constitutes a "drop" versus a "no drop" group ride until at least 100 pages are spent debating what the definition of a group ride is.

KerryIrons

So he "only" had to walk a couple of miles in bike shoes? That is brutal. Along the lines of "we need an item of clothing so the search dogs will know your scent." Shame on that rider for not having the ability to deal with a flat, but that seems a sure way to keep the group size small.

Troul 

without knowing more details, I think a free tube left behind is more than accommodating should the rider not packed a reasonable amount of road side DIYers.

I'd not be surprised if group rides shrink dramatically due to people being poor planners, lacking simple bicycle mechanical abilities, or just not having a back-up plan in place to not burden the group. It's not on anyone other than that individual's responsibility to fix there issue. Should anyone decide to assist, that is not to ever be expected.

SpeedyBlueBiker

I occasionally ride with a very large bicycle club based out of Seattle. The rides are set out over various distances and paces. This helps to keep a group of similar riders together. Most rides are no-drop but if you have mechanical issues, they might not wait for that. In their ride descriptions they advise to have spare tubes, a phone, and basically some type of back-up plan if all goes pear shaped. Most rides generally have 5-20 riders.

cyccommute 

That’s the opposite of a “no drop” ride. Having lead hundreds of rides of ever level possible, I always made it clear to people at the start of the ride what to expect. If the ride is a “easy” ride, they can expect to that they will not be dropped out in the middle of no where without support. If they tell me (or others on the ride) that they opt to be dropped or will make their way home on their own, that’s their choice but, for the most part, they can expect as much hand holding as I can give them as the ride leader.

If the ride is a moderate ride, I expect them to be a bit more self sufficient but if the ride is a “no drop” ride, I’m not going to drop them. There are always rabbits on rides but I never worried about those. If I’m not the ride leader, I can be a rabbit myself but I don’t expect the ride leader to worry about me. I always consider rabbits to be on their own on easy and moderate rides.

On difficult rides, pretty much all bets are off. Metric centuries, centuries, double metrics, completely stupid mountain bike rides of 50 to 100 miles (yes, I’ve done them), etc. are all rides that are hard enough that I, as the ride leader, have a hard time do them myself so I can’t really do too much handholding nor would I expect a ride leader on those kinds of rides to do the same for me.

But if I said that the ride was “no drop”, the riders could expect me to at least get them to somewhere where they could get home by some means.

Koyote

Agreed. I was pretty new to the area, we were out on very rural gravel roads, and so I had no idea of our location -- would've had a tough time finding the downed rider, much less finding my way home without the group. Now that I am familiar with the area, I'd go back. Oh, and the rider was on flat pedals, so he walked in sneakers.

I offered the story as an example of "the opposite of a 'no drop' ride." Hence the description of the ride as "brutal." Perhaps you missed that point in my post. So, yeah, agreed.

Juan Foote

One of my single worst group rides was a "no drop" and the advertized speed was well within (what I thought) was my capability at the time.

We lived in South Atlanta, and aside from rollers there is very little by way of actual climbing. Now, to be fair, my idea of a climb is FAR different than many riders. We moved up to Northwest Atlanta and the area there is quite hilly. Hardly a flat around. There was a bike shop nearby that I had dealt with, great shop, and they had several advertised club rides posted to a board. I joined one that was a weekly week(night) ride and it was spectacular. The distance was good, in spite of the hills, and the sweep was a really great guy who stayed back with me and gave considerable encouragement. I rode with them a few times and felt pretty confident that I could stay with the group, if not right on the back, within sight.

That same shop had a weekend ride that was a bit longer than the night ride and used a similar, but not same path that I was not only not aware of the route, but hadn't lived in the area long enough to know my way back. The ride was listed as a no drop so I figured the worst I could do was have a sweep fall back with me. I introduced myself at the start of the ride and found who the designated ride leaders were and so forth. I did pretty well for the first portion of the ride. It went into an area that was very hilly and steep and I lost sight of the group. The sweep apparently didn't notice and the next thing I know I am riding alone in an unfamiliar neighborhood. I was doing everything I could to try and catch sight of the group and was riding quite quickly through the area and there were speed breaks, not really a "bump" but a built up wide hump that was painted. As I was going over one of those my phone got knocked loose from the mount and went directly under the back tire. So, separated and lost from the group, not noticed, and my phone was destroyed.
I attempted to ask around of some of the homeowners and pedestrians and those that didn't practically run or ignore me outright informed me that there were THREE bike shops in proximity to where I was. I had no idea what to do and was honestly getting quite anxious. Just about then another lone rider came by and supposing that he could sense my state of near panic at this point stopped to talk to me. I discussed where we had come from and he went well out of his way to ride me back to the bike shop.

I discussed my displeasure with the owner of the shop and attempted to have a discussion with the ride leader later, but the atmosphere was pretty much "you can't keep up you shouldn't have been out there" in SPITE of the "no drop" policy stated on the board. I have still used the shop as they have great mechanics, and have noted that the specific ride I went on with them is marked as a drop ride AND has a paper map available near the board. I have not, however, attempted to ride with that group again.

The experience led me to lead the "C" (beginner) ride at (another) shop for two years running. I always designated one of the seasoned riders to lead and stayed at the back with the slowest rider. My efforts in that group led to many more people confidently moving up to, and keeping up with the "B" group.

msu2001la

I have a different "no drop" ride experience. I participate in a large weekend group ride (during the summer we will be upwards of 40-50 people) with a local race team that is "no drop" for the first half - roughly 25 miles one way to a coffee shop. We tell people that our no-drop pace is typically 18-20mph, but that we will adjust and ride as slow as the slowest rider. We specifically tell people that the no-drop ride goal is to keep everyone together. We stop for flats, mechanicals and if there is a gap - we immediately yell out "gap" and the front riders will slow down - team members/regular riders will drop back to help close the gap, etc. We do this right away, not miles up the road or at stop signs, etc. We don't rotate as a paceline either - just two wide the whole way and it'll usually just be 3-4 team members on the front pulling the whole time. The whole group stops at the coffee shop.

After the coffee stop, our ride officially becomes "drop". Smaller groups split up and either continue riding various "extensions" or return directly to the start point. The pace on the "drop" portion of the ride is typically higher and up to the individual groups, we have some pre-determined sprint points and tend to use these groups for more focused race style training with rotating pacelines. For the drop portion, there is no expectation that any group will adjust their pace for slower riders, so we ask that people to know the route and be prepared for a solo ride if they cannot maintain the pace of the group they are with. We usually don't care if people sit in and skip pulls in these groups as long as they're not doing anything dangerous. Our "drop" groups will also still typically stop for flats and mechanicals even during the faster portion of the ride, and we might hold up at a stop sign or gas station to allow dropped riders to regroup, but we aren't slowing the pace down. The decisions on which routes and what pace are usually negotiated at the coffee shop and sometimes there will be 2-3 different groups that leave at different times, so anyone desiring a specific route or pace is free to join or try to get their own group together.

I've found that this approach works really well. The expectation for team members/experienced riders is that they will ride the no-drop portion at whatever speed is needed (which is usually around 18-20mph but sometimes slower - I don't think it's ever been slower than 16-17mph) - and usually no one complains or tries to push the pace because we all know we'll get plenty of full-gas riding after the stop. On the flip side, newer riders don't feel like they're holding anyone up and they also get the opportunity to dip their toe into faster paceline for extra miles riding after the stop whenever they're ready.

Koyote

That does sound pretty miserable.

I once joined a group for an annual climbing ride which was about 80 miles from my home -- so I was unfamiliar with the area. There was no gps file. I was in my mid-50s, and went with my 24-year old friend. He really wanted to go with the A group, so I apprehensively went along. At some point, I was struggling mightily just to stay attached to the back of the group -- it felt like I'd been hammering for hours; I looked at my computer and found that we'd covered seven miles of the 50 mile ride. They would get to the top of a big climb, barely slow down to recover, and then hammer onward. I suffered like a rented mule, but did finish with the group - which felt good.

Seems like a good compromise.

Juan Foote

This sounds a whole lot like a ride here called the "Airport Ride". I assume it is still going on, but basically from down near Palmetto to up near the airport for a stop and then back. The way up is pretty calm, standard ride. The way back is an all out suffer fest. I went with a couple of friends one time. The beauty being it is a straight shot down a highway (Roosevelt) and impossible to get lost on. All but one of the people I went with were in the group with us riding back with tongues dragging in the dirt.

mstateglfr 

Any chance you have a route for this? RWGPS, Strava, etc?

RCMoeur 

My Sunday morning group I've been leading for the past 32 years is definitely "no drop" - I adjust the pace to the group, frequently look to see if anyone (newbie or long-timer) is straggling, and do most everything practicable to not lose anyone. Now this doesn't extend to following people around all day or knocking on their doors at 3 AM, but everything reasonable.

Unless a rider disappears off the front. We advise them not to do that, but if they insist, I can't provide guidance if they're ahead of me, so I consider them to have intentionally left the group.

We ride as one big happy group, mostly on quiet residential or minor collector streets, and nearly everyone seems content with the arrangement. There can be many turns to stay on a quiet scenic route, and mapping or cue sheets could get awfully complicated. This allows for on-the-fly route adjustments or changes depending on conditions or rider feedback ("threats" is such an ugly word.) If a rider wants a faster pace, we have another faster group they can try the next week. I may not have a big group every single week, but I have a huge alumni association.

About a year ago, we had a minor crisis when a long-time member decided to drop off unnoticed on the return ride from the restaurant. Searches were made, but we didn't see him. I called his cell, and no answer. Later that day, after already having had a couple other riders berate me for my negligence, he replied via e-mail after he got home that he wasn't feeling great (he had a chronic medical condition, another reason for our concern) and decided to slip away so as not to be an embarrassment. Since then, I have re-emphasized that any rider intending to leave the group enroute (such as if we go by their neighborhood or they want a longer solo ride) needs to clearly notify the leader so we can have a clear handoff, and since then, no problems.

Other groups in our club in other areas have mapped routes that are posted several days in advance - typically with few turns mostly on busy arterial streets to keep the maps and cue sheets simple. The club management has questioned my decision not to post routes in advance for every ride, and I've noted the reasons listed above. We agree to disagree. I've even had a leader in another group announce that our group must be defunct because "they aren't posting routes, and if they're not posting routes, they must not be riding anymore." I was not at all happy about that.

Bald Paul

FWIW, I always post planned group ride routes ahead of time, and encourage those interested in participating to download them to their GPS unit. One other good thing - on RWGPS, you can 'see' a grade chart of the route. If climbing isn't your thing, and the route has a multi mile section of double digit grade, it's probably not your kind of ride. I learned that lesson years ago when I signed up for a charity ride. The route was brutal, with one hard climb after another. I swear, the parking lot which was the starting and finishing point somehow gained a few thousand feet of elevation during the ride. My personal rule now is that if the route isn't published, I won't go.

msu2001la

Sure - here you go:
​​​​​​https://xxxracing.org/ride

​​​​​​https://www.strava.com/routes/17547819

Anyone can join - we are a fairly social group and this is a great option for people who might be in town visiting. Lots of local racers in the group. The first few miles out of the city are kind of garbage, but the roads north of Evanston are beautiful and loaded with local cycling groups. Cyclists easily outnumber cars on weekend mornings.

cyccommute 

I missed your point because you didn’t make the point you thought you did. You said “…but otherwise it is ‘no drop.’” A ride can be “brutal” but still be no drop.

Koyote

You are correct -- I mis-wrote. I've fixed it, below, to what I should've written in the first place.

caloso

I prefer the brutal unambiguity of the drop ride. Be self-sufficient and know your way home, just as if you headed out on a solo ride, because it may become one. Ride hard and safe, contribute if possible, sit in if you must, and if the pace is just beyond your fitness, stay attached as long as you can. Then, take some water and ride tempo home. Next week, try and hang on a little longer. That's a time-tested way to get stronger.

msu2001la

This is well said, and basically sums up my approach to every group ride. The "no drop" portion of my regular ride is a nice social warmup. Then we stop, chat, have a coffee, refill our bottles, joke about how we're gonna ride everyone off our wheels and then go try to do exactly that. Almost every weekend at some point it'll be on like donkey kong, and pushing through those moments to stay with the group when things get spicy is definitely part of the attraction.

big john

I have been a member of a road club for 34 years. We've had as many as 500 members but large turnout rides have been 50-60 riders in years past. Our schedule has 4 to 6 routes on Saturdays and only a short ride on Sundays. Turnouts are way down since the pandemic.

No average speeds are ever advertised and no rides are ever claimed to be drop/no drop. Also, there is never a "ride leader", per se. And if a paceline forms it's because the riders there decide to do it.

For years printed route slips were brought to the ride start but about 15-ish years ago that stopped and you now have to print one from the club page if you want one. Many people download the route to their device or look it up if they get lost.

Sometime someone will become a de facto leader and everyone will follow that rider. Sometimes the faster riders will start racing each other and blow the thing up.

I have done at least 2500 rides with this club including some weekday rides. They have been everything you could imagine. I was never a fast climber but I could do ok on the flats but that got harder as I got older. I still have a great time sometimes but other times I get frustrated and don't feel like coming back.

urbanknight

They actually do list average speeds just to give newcomers an idea of what to expect.
https://sfvbc.org/index.php/faqs/
Since it's only the #1 ride on Sundays, the fast guys tend to blow it up.

I would complain that they don't have the monthly orientation rides anymore, but the last 3 potential newcomers didn't show even after a handful of us promised to do the #1 ride at their pace.

Just a funny note, I see that they have a "coming soon - slower Sunday ride" note from 2 years ago. Of course, all it really takes to have a slower group is for 2 or more people to ride more slowly and together.

rsbob 

I lead Cascade weekend rides for several years with the original Cascade Animal Training Series. They ranged from 10 to 15 dedicated riders with another 10 joining once a month. All the rides were no-drop (with one exception for a non-club member who invited himself and broke lots of rules). The rides ranged from 60 to 80 miles and the pacelines ran 18-22 MPH. No racers, just quick recreational riders most of which did STP in one day. Four people who met during the rides got married, and all of us were invited, as well as parties and informal pizza get togethers. We all looked out for one another, waited for the stragglers and helped with repairs.

After I left the series the CATS group transformed into a more law breaking, testosterone fueled pseudo racer group which was later decommissioned by Cascade. It may be back in some permutation

datlas 

This. Too many variables but ideally there is an understanding about regrouping or not.

I lead a Wednesday ride that has a posted pace and no drop. I have been leading this ride for over 10 years. There have been some riders who think the pace is “too fast” and if they constantly cannot keep up, I kindly suggest they may want a slower group. There have also been a few riders that think they are racing and push the pace, I have been annoyed enough to tell them to make their own ride and go faster, which they have.

The only time I groan about my no drop policy is when someone has a flat. Flats are part of riding, but they are a major nuisance when it affects everyone on the ride. If we are close enough to the mid-way rest stop or the end of the ride, I will often send most of the group ahead and stay back with the person with the flat. Luckily, that does not happen often. Usually only when I have something really important scheduled after the ride!

As always. YMMV but best suggestion is clarify expectations with ride leader and try to be flexible.