Question about the physiological benefits from moto-pacing vs. undergear training
09-18-17, 10:42 AM
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Question about the physiological benefits from moto-pacing vs. undergear training
Just to be clear, I know there are lots of benefits and/or uses to moto-pacing for workouts, warm-ups, mock enduro races, etc. This is not a thread questioning those benefits. And I know that there is a big benefit to actually experiencing the race speeds of the motor and the way the bike handles at speed, the psychological benefits, etc. AND that the moto lets you spend more time "over-speed" because you're not limited by the banking or hill length BUT:
What I'd like to know is if anyone has any hard data that pin-points the physiological differences between high rev work behind a moto and under-geared work using the banking on a track or a hill on a road bike.
Behind a moto, you're working less hard because of the draft, you're going "over-speed", and working on developing high RPMs. The moto forces you to learn to put out power at higher RPM because you can go faster behind the moto on your own. Put another way you can put out less power for a given RPM on a given gear at a given speed. This is not wholly different than undergear training from a muscular rate of force development perspective. In a smaller gear (but in the wind) you've got to learn to generate power at more RPMs as you dive down a banking or a hill because gravity gets you up to speed like the moto would. Using the banking or hill is less controlled and typically shorter intervals than behind behind the moto of course.
Does anyone see this differently? Am I totally off base here for some reason I am not seeing?
What I'd like to know is if anyone has any hard data that pin-points the physiological differences between high rev work behind a moto and under-geared work using the banking on a track or a hill on a road bike.
Behind a moto, you're working less hard because of the draft, you're going "over-speed", and working on developing high RPMs. The moto forces you to learn to put out power at higher RPM because you can go faster behind the moto on your own. Put another way you can put out less power for a given RPM on a given gear at a given speed. This is not wholly different than undergear training from a muscular rate of force development perspective. In a smaller gear (but in the wind) you've got to learn to generate power at more RPMs as you dive down a banking or a hill because gravity gets you up to speed like the moto would. Using the banking or hill is less controlled and typically shorter intervals than behind behind the moto of course.
Does anyone see this differently? Am I totally off base here for some reason I am not seeing?
09-18-17, 10:55 AM
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It's my understanding that the other big benefit from motor pacing is practicing the "come-around" as you attempt to pass (or at least draw even with) the motorbike.
It's sort of like a negative-split effort (actually a double* negative split) where the 1st part is done at a certain cadence and torque then the 2nd part is done with both increased cadence and torque. Increased cadence to go faster and increased torque to overcome the wind that the motorbike was blocking for you. This directly simulates what happens in race situations.
*double because you are doing negative split cadence effort and a negative split power effort and the power required is much higher than what would normally be required if you were simply doing a negative split effort where you just went faster.
This is somewhat difficult to simulate in on a trainer or riding solo on the track. You can do it with a mag trainer where you hold one cadence for a given resistance setting then when it's time to "come around" you take the resistance up a notch and increase your cadence for a prescribed period. You can do it on the track by training with a partner. But, it will wear the partner (lead rider) out much faster than you'll wear out as (s)he's in the wind much more than you are
It's sort of like a negative-split effort (actually a double* negative split) where the 1st part is done at a certain cadence and torque then the 2nd part is done with both increased cadence and torque. Increased cadence to go faster and increased torque to overcome the wind that the motorbike was blocking for you. This directly simulates what happens in race situations.
*double because you are doing negative split cadence effort and a negative split power effort and the power required is much higher than what would normally be required if you were simply doing a negative split effort where you just went faster.
This is somewhat difficult to simulate in on a trainer or riding solo on the track. You can do it with a mag trainer where you hold one cadence for a given resistance setting then when it's time to "come around" you take the resistance up a notch and increase your cadence for a prescribed period. You can do it on the track by training with a partner. But, it will wear the partner (lead rider) out much faster than you'll wear out as (s)he's in the wind much more than you are
09-18-17, 11:02 AM
#3
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Sounds to me like you've got the physiological factors figured out.
I've been doing this type of training since the mid 70's and I believe that there are all of these benefits you've mentioned. I would like to add one more, "motor memory" I believe that once your body get more accustomed to the higher RPM it tries to duplicate it during races. So even if you reach 10 RPM higher than normal while motor pacing you might reach 2 or 3 RPM higher during the events. Cheers
I've been doing this type of training since the mid 70's and I believe that there are all of these benefits you've mentioned. I would like to add one more, "motor memory" I believe that once your body get more accustomed to the higher RPM it tries to duplicate it during races. So even if you reach 10 RPM higher than normal while motor pacing you might reach 2 or 3 RPM higher during the events. Cheers
09-18-17, 11:55 AM
#4
Blast from the Past
Haven't been behind a motor in ages! Carlton makes a good point, a great way to get the feel of running up on a wheel, how that feels at speed. When I did get some motor time it always surprised me how far back you start to feel the rpm's rise. You don't get that same sensation sprinting on the Road.
It also lets you spend more time at speed if that is the goal, since the motor can get you up to pace w/o a lot of wasted energy.
A little off topic. Scariest experience of my cycling life was sitting behind a motor at Major Taylor, on the back of a Tandem. Entering turn 3 on a flying lap I did not expect to live.
It also lets you spend more time at speed if that is the goal, since the motor can get you up to pace w/o a lot of wasted energy.
A little off topic. Scariest experience of my cycling life was sitting behind a motor at Major Taylor, on the back of a Tandem. Entering turn 3 on a flying lap I did not expect to live.
09-19-17, 10:06 AM
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It's my understanding that the other big benefit from motor pacing is practicing the "come-around" as you attempt to pass (or at least draw even with) the motorbike.
It's sort of like a negative-split effort (actually a double* negative split) where the 1st part is done at a certain cadence and torque then the 2nd part is done with both increased cadence and torque. Increased cadence to go faster and increased torque to overcome the wind that the motorbike was blocking for you. This directly simulates what happens in race situations.
*double because you are doing negative split cadence effort and a negative split power effort and the power required is much higher than what would normally be required if you were simply doing a negative split effort where you just went faster.
This is somewhat difficult to simulate in on a trainer or riding solo on the track. You can do it with a mag trainer where you hold one cadence for a given resistance setting then when it's time to "come around" you take the resistance up a notch and increase your cadence for a prescribed period. You can do it on the track by training with a partner. But, it will wear the partner (lead rider) out much faster than you'll wear out as (s)he's in the wind much more than you are
It's sort of like a negative-split effort (actually a double* negative split) where the 1st part is done at a certain cadence and torque then the 2nd part is done with both increased cadence and torque. Increased cadence to go faster and increased torque to overcome the wind that the motorbike was blocking for you. This directly simulates what happens in race situations.
*double because you are doing negative split cadence effort and a negative split power effort and the power required is much higher than what would normally be required if you were simply doing a negative split effort where you just went faster.
This is somewhat difficult to simulate in on a trainer or riding solo on the track. You can do it with a mag trainer where you hold one cadence for a given resistance setting then when it's time to "come around" you take the resistance up a notch and increase your cadence for a prescribed period. You can do it on the track by training with a partner. But, it will wear the partner (lead rider) out much faster than you'll wear out as (s)he's in the wind much more than you are
(I am a geeky, have no motorbike for pacing and my friends are too lazy to sprint)
Edit: I mean, if its possible to calculate the difference in Power and Cadence (double split) to actually replicate the conditions that requieres to "pass the motorbike". Of course, it should vary in terms of drag depending of the max speed...
Right now I am thinking in how much speed and power difference you actually need to overcome a rival during a match sprint. Of course, taking in count the difference of distance too.
Last edited by Franklin27; 09-19-17 at 10:31 AM.
09-19-17, 11:40 AM
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aka mattio
You can do work that's similar to motorpaced sprint work/come-around work by finding a road to sprint on that gives you a downhill leadout into a flat runout.
Use the downhill leadout to get up to fast leadout speeds - a touch below spring speed, perhaps, or maybe just on the low end of sprint speed.
And then sprint. Work on your top end, applying power at optimal cadences, and turning that into speed when resistance is high (e.g. you're moving fast).
Like taras said in a different thread, as soon as you start to bog down, stop.
Use the downhill leadout to get up to fast leadout speeds - a touch below spring speed, perhaps, or maybe just on the low end of sprint speed.
And then sprint. Work on your top end, applying power at optimal cadences, and turning that into speed when resistance is high (e.g. you're moving fast).
Like taras said in a different thread, as soon as you start to bog down, stop.
09-19-17, 12:31 PM
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Do you think that it is possible to identify the percentage of the difference of resistance to actually replicate this training on the mag trainer?
(I am a geeky, have no motorbike for pacing and my friends are too lazy to sprint)
Edit: I mean, if its possible to calculate the difference in Power and Cadence (double split) to actually replicate the conditions that requieres to "pass the motorbike". Of course, it should vary in terms of drag depending of the max speed...
Right now I am thinking in how much speed and power difference you actually need to overcome a rival during a match sprint. Of course, taking in count the difference of distance too.
(I am a geeky, have no motorbike for pacing and my friends are too lazy to sprint)
Edit: I mean, if its possible to calculate the difference in Power and Cadence (double split) to actually replicate the conditions that requieres to "pass the motorbike". Of course, it should vary in terms of drag depending of the max speed...
Right now I am thinking in how much speed and power difference you actually need to overcome a rival during a match sprint. Of course, taking in count the difference of distance too.
The long answer is...doing the math
You can do it here: Analytic Cycling, Interactive methods for estimating cycling performance.
Basically, your CdA changes as well as your speed. Calculate the forces required for the CdA behind the bike at the stead speed and the CdA when you try to pass at the higher speed.
It's a good homework problem for a collegiate physics student.
You can do work that's similar to motorpaced sprint work/come-around work by finding a road to sprint on that gives you a downhill leadout into a flat runout.
Use the downhill leadout to get up to fast leadout speeds - a touch below spring speed, perhaps, or maybe just on the low end of sprint speed.
And then sprint. Work on your top end, applying power at optimal cadences, and turning that into speed when resistance is high (e.g. you're moving fast).
Like taras said in a different thread, as soon as you start to bog down, stop.
Use the downhill leadout to get up to fast leadout speeds - a touch below spring speed, perhaps, or maybe just on the low end of sprint speed.
And then sprint. Work on your top end, applying power at optimal cadences, and turning that into speed when resistance is high (e.g. you're moving fast).
Like taras said in a different thread, as soon as you start to bog down, stop.
Also, I saw in a Keirin School video where they had the athletes on a paved road on the campus that was V-shaped (actually like a V with a flat bottom I guess). The riders would line up on top of one end of the V and haul ass down (gaining legspeed) then have to do their best to maintain the leg speed to make it to the top of the other part of the V.
Maybe Baby Puke can tell us more about it. I can't find the video immediately but I'll keep looking.
I found these pics:
Start:
Finish:
09-19-17, 05:54 PM
#8
Senior Member
Actually this is not v-shaped, it's just a flat road running up to something like a 20% grade for 100 meters or so. So this is not akin to motorpacing or running down a hill to get top-end work. They actually go flat out from the gate and then struggle like mad once they hit the hill. Brutal. More of an extreme strength endurance/strength under fatigue type workout I guess.
09-19-17, 06:10 PM
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09-19-17, 11:13 PM
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That was featured in this short documentary on Pervis. It's about 11 minutes in, and yeah, it looks insane.
09-19-17, 11:23 PM
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The narrator rattles off that it's 500m at nearly 30%, but that can't be right. I'm thinking what he means is it's 500m from the flat start to the top of the hill. You can see from the on-bike camera shot that they do the whole drill in about 30 seconds.
09-20-17, 10:57 AM
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I do motor work each week as part of my training. We use a motor for warmup to keep the power down and the coach uses it to control the speed.
All of my motor work is chase the motor where the motor increases speed as I approach the motor such that I am always accelerating and there is a gap between me and the motor. This results in max cadence at max power. Or we use the motor to wind up the effort for a solo effort to follow with the motor next to me shouting encouragement to go faster - hence more speed and more power.
For beginners, riding behind the motor to increase leg speed at lower power is okay and I guess riding a road bike down hill would be similar.
All of my motor work is chase the motor where the motor increases speed as I approach the motor such that I am always accelerating and there is a gap between me and the motor. This results in max cadence at max power. Or we use the motor to wind up the effort for a solo effort to follow with the motor next to me shouting encouragement to go faster - hence more speed and more power.
For beginners, riding behind the motor to increase leg speed at lower power is okay and I guess riding a road bike down hill would be similar.
