Raleigh Twenty to Life
10-10-12, 09:36 PM
#26
Hopelessly addicted...
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 4,955
Bikes: 1949 Hercules Kestrel, 1950 Norman Rapide, 1970 Schwinn Collegiate, 1972 Peugeot UE-8, 1976 Raleigh Sports, 1977 Raleigh Sports, 1977 Jack Taylor Tandem, 1984 Davidson Tandem, 2010 Bilenky "BQ" 650B Constructeur Tandem, 2011 Linus Mixte
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
10-10-12, 09:41 PM
#27
Hopelessly addicted...
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 4,955
Bikes: 1949 Hercules Kestrel, 1950 Norman Rapide, 1970 Schwinn Collegiate, 1972 Peugeot UE-8, 1976 Raleigh Sports, 1977 Raleigh Sports, 1977 Jack Taylor Tandem, 1984 Davidson Tandem, 2010 Bilenky "BQ" 650B Constructeur Tandem, 2011 Linus Mixte
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
What say ye?
10-10-12, 11:39 PM
#28
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
The 406 wheel was the export sizing, believe this was used due to the 406 being very common outside of England before BMX bicycles made the 406 a standard and it was actually Raleigh that started this as well.
The 1.125 seatpost is easy enough to source in a longer alloy version... I can just get by with the steel post with a 32.5 leg but after that a longer post is warranted.
A dual drive option is possible although it is a little harder to do with an R20 and it's 1/8 chain than it is with it's cousin the Phillip's which has a 3/32 chainwheel... with the P20 one can use Shimano cogs to build the dual drive and use almost and rear d while with the 20 you need to use a rear d with a very wide cage to accommodate the wider chain.
I have a Moulten F in the works as well as a Dawes Kingpin folder, the Dawes was a competitor to the R20 and began it's life just a little earlier and is a very well made bicycle with an excellent hinge design.
The Dawes will be getting a Campagnolo drive train and will be built up as an ultra light 451 wheel road bike while the F frame will see itself getting an SA 5 speed... reduction gearing is essential on the Moulten to work with the much smaller wheels.
I don't think these bikes will change my affection for the Raleigh 20 and Forrest and I will keep on racking up the miles together... I only finished the work on this bike this spring so now I want to enjoy it.
The 1.125 seatpost is easy enough to source in a longer alloy version... I can just get by with the steel post with a 32.5 leg but after that a longer post is warranted.
A dual drive option is possible although it is a little harder to do with an R20 and it's 1/8 chain than it is with it's cousin the Phillip's which has a 3/32 chainwheel... with the P20 one can use Shimano cogs to build the dual drive and use almost and rear d while with the 20 you need to use a rear d with a very wide cage to accommodate the wider chain.
I have a Moulten F in the works as well as a Dawes Kingpin folder, the Dawes was a competitor to the R20 and began it's life just a little earlier and is a very well made bicycle with an excellent hinge design.
The Dawes will be getting a Campagnolo drive train and will be built up as an ultra light 451 wheel road bike while the F frame will see itself getting an SA 5 speed... reduction gearing is essential on the Moulten to work with the much smaller wheels.
I don't think these bikes will change my affection for the Raleigh 20 and Forrest and I will keep on racking up the miles together... I only finished the work on this bike this spring so now I want to enjoy it.
10-10-12, 11:42 PM
#29
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
I can... my P20 lived as a fixed gear / drop bar bike for a very long time.
This warranted my re-tapping the bb to a standard 24 tpi and fitting a 73mm bottom bracket... the Phillips came with this 73mm size while the R20 has a 76mm shell and also needs facing to bring it to a modern 68 or 73 mm specification.
This knocked quite a few pounds off the bike.
This warranted my re-tapping the bb to a standard 24 tpi and fitting a 73mm bottom bracket... the Phillips came with this 73mm size while the R20 has a 76mm shell and also needs facing to bring it to a modern 68 or 73 mm specification.
This knocked quite a few pounds off the bike.
10-10-12, 11:51 PM
#30
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
I did this because I have the tools at my disposal and some skills with a torch and for me it was all time invested with relatively little cost as most of the shiny bits were seconds and salvage.
Before the fenders but after powder coating... really fresh from the mint so to speak.
10-11-12, 04:52 AM
#31
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
That makes perfect sense 65r.
Photogravity - that sounds like a lot of fun...I love that idea. A lightweight 3sp does sound interesting. I'm not sure which bike I'm more excited about, the vanilla or cinelli.
I think, for me, drops with the 20 might not work because of the crank position. Everything feels further forward with this bike, and I think drops would further exaggerate the position.
I hoped someone would like the title.
Special thanks to Rudi for his generosity of both parts and knowledge.
Photogravity - that sounds like a lot of fun...I love that idea. A lightweight 3sp does sound interesting. I'm not sure which bike I'm more excited about, the vanilla or cinelli.
I think, for me, drops with the 20 might not work because of the crank position. Everything feels further forward with this bike, and I think drops would further exaggerate the position.
I hoped someone would like the title.
Special thanks to Rudi for his generosity of both parts and knowledge.
10-11-12, 05:09 AM
#32
Senior Member
[/B]
sounds like you need to upgrade to more advanced small wheeled classics. I recommend a Moulton F-Frame S series (Speed Six, Safari S, Stowaway S) or a Royal Enfield Revalation. Neither fold but are were made with 531. and alloy components.
Good luck finding either though. Note that the regular Moulton F-Frame bikes are made from less fancy steel and weigh about the same as a R20.
The Moulton and the R20 are fun bikes to ride. Nice and nippy. and very practical. I don't know about the Royal Enfield as they are very rare beasts and I've never actually seen one.
sounds like you need to upgrade to more advanced small wheeled classics. I recommend a Moulton F-Frame S series (Speed Six, Safari S, Stowaway S) or a Royal Enfield Revalation. Neither fold but are were made with 531. and alloy components.
Good luck finding either though. Note that the regular Moulton F-Frame bikes are made from less fancy steel and weigh about the same as a R20. The Moulton and the R20 are fun bikes to ride. Nice and nippy. and very practical. I don't know about the Royal Enfield as they are very rare beasts and I've never actually seen one.
Aaron needs no encouraging when it comes to buying bikes!
10-11-12, 07:07 AM
#34
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,808
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Mentioned: 584 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1908 Post(s)
Liked 574 Times
in
339 Posts
Hey, as Twenties go, that is really fine specimen!
My '71 is the same color, but far worse condition; came with the larger 20 x 1 3/8 wheels, chromed steel Raleigh brakes, and two piece stem/handlebar. And it was definitely imported to the US.
Looking at the above photo, I wonder if there might be a little friction where the cable exits the housing. At the risk of heel strike, perhaps you can rotate the fulcrum clip a quarter turn so the back end of the cable is on the side of the chain stay, rather than the top? Shifting problems will occur when the spring inside the hub isn't strong enough to pull the shift cable all the way out of the housing, so it behooves one to eliminate every possible source of friction.
My '71 is the same color, but far worse condition; came with the larger 20 x 1 3/8 wheels, chromed steel Raleigh brakes, and two piece stem/handlebar. And it was definitely imported to the US.
Looking at the above photo, I wonder if there might be a little friction where the cable exits the housing. At the risk of heel strike, perhaps you can rotate the fulcrum clip a quarter turn so the back end of the cable is on the side of the chain stay, rather than the top? Shifting problems will occur when the spring inside the hub isn't strong enough to pull the shift cable all the way out of the housing, so it behooves one to eliminate every possible source of friction.
10-11-12, 07:22 AM
#35
Cisalpinist
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Holland
Posts: 5,557
Bikes: blue ones.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 16 Times
in
11 Posts
Aaron, if the problem persists (which I hope it won't, you better not be committed to a life sentence of bum knee!) I surely see a more modern moulton in your future, like 'nome said... same advantages, but with an ultralight frame and the option of running 11s super record! In case of a full recovery, too. I just loved mine until a heinous vagabond stole it. Really a whole new biking experience alltogether.
10-11-12, 10:03 AM
#36
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
Aaron, if the problem persists (which I hope it won't, you better not be committed to a life sentence of bum knee!) I surely see a more modern moulton in your future, like 'nome said... same advantages, but with an ultralight frame and the option of running 11s super record! In case of a full recovery, too. I just loved mine until a heinous vagabond stole it. Really a whole new biking experience alltogether.
If this were going another 6 months I would have gone that exact route...I'd have bought a new'ish Moulton. Those are really cool bikes, and I'm glad I have a little experience with the small wheel machines now.
I hope you track him down and mete out Viking justice.
Hey, as Twenties go, that is really fine specimen!
My '71 is the same color, but far worse condition; came with the larger 20 x 1 3/8 wheels, chromed steel Raleigh brakes, and two piece stem/handlebar. And it was definitely imported to the US.
Looking at the above photo, I wonder if there might be a little friction where the cable exits the housing. At the risk of heel strike, perhaps you can rotate the fulcrum clip a quarter turn so the back end of the cable is on the side of the chain stay, rather than the top? Shifting problems will occur when the spring inside the hub isn't strong enough to pull the shift cable all the way out of the housing, so it behooves one to eliminate every possible source of friction.
My '71 is the same color, but far worse condition; came with the larger 20 x 1 3/8 wheels, chromed steel Raleigh brakes, and two piece stem/handlebar. And it was definitely imported to the US.
Looking at the above photo, I wonder if there might be a little friction where the cable exits the housing. At the risk of heel strike, perhaps you can rotate the fulcrum clip a quarter turn so the back end of the cable is on the side of the chain stay, rather than the top? Shifting problems will occur when the spring inside the hub isn't strong enough to pull the shift cable all the way out of the housing, so it behooves one to eliminate every possible source of friction.
10-11-12, 10:38 AM
#37
Vello Kombi, baby
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Je suis ici
Posts: 5,188
Bikes: 1973 Eisentraut; 1970s Richard Sachs; 1978 Alfio Bonnano; 1967 Peugeot PX10
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
One thing I have found when working with a small wheeled bike is the need to do gear inch calculations. The small wheels throw gear inches off by a substantial amount, and you need to rework the drivetrain. I recently set up a Mercier Nano, which has 406 wheels, and had to pretty much completely redo the drivetrain. In fact, I pretty much had to redo the complete bike; nothing above the wheels is original.
Small wheeled bikes are great in urban areas-- they manuever well and accelerate quickly, although they do not hold speed well. But in traffic, those two positives count for a lot.
A Moulton is on the very very short list of bikes I would pay actual money for.
Small wheeled bikes are great in urban areas-- they manuever well and accelerate quickly, although they do not hold speed well. But in traffic, those two positives count for a lot.
A Moulton is on the very very short list of bikes I would pay actual money for.
__________________
"It's always darkest right before it goes completely black"
Waste your money! Buy my comic book!
"It's always darkest right before it goes completely black"
Waste your money! Buy my comic book!
10-11-12, 10:49 AM
#38
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
Pogue - I'm finding the same thing...it really handles urban riding with aplomb. As you said, it takes a lot to keep it going, but it's quick to start up. One interesting observation...I was going down a hill on the south street bridge, and had some flat riding, and people were blasting by me. Girls on single speeds were blasting by me. I hit a moderate hill that goes for about 6-7 blocks, and I ended up passing the folks who had got me on the way down. I've noticed it before, but it was really obvious today.
It seems - relative to other bikes - slower down hill than up. Once you hit above moderate hill, it seems to get brutal and slow again, probably because I can't get out of the saddle with it.
It seems - relative to other bikes - slower down hill than up. Once you hit above moderate hill, it seems to get brutal and slow again, probably because I can't get out of the saddle with it.
10-11-12, 11:15 AM
#39
Senior Member
And congrats on getting clearance to ride again!
10-11-12, 11:54 AM
#40
Collector of Useless Info
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,404
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Smaller diameter- over the years the 20 inch "standard" had a few different bead seat diameters, the most common were the BMX 406 mm (20 x 1.xy) and the Erto 451 mm (20 x 1 x/y). The Erto's are 46 mm larger in diameter, although the tires were typically thinner. Raleigh 20's were made with both sizes, with the 406 diameter typically being exported on folding versions.
10-11-12, 11:55 AM
#41
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
An R20 sitting on 451 wheels and tyres is a taller bike by nearly 2 inches and this was the size wheel the 20 was designed for. The 451 equipped bikes have shorter reach steel brakes and narrower rims and tend to roll out a little quicker.
10-11-12, 01:41 PM
#43
Count Orlok Member
A little oil in the hub and a few miles on the road do wonders for the hubs, too.
10-12-12, 06:19 PM
#44
Membership Not Required
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Posts: 16,855
Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
14 Posts
There is a modern version of the Twenty in lighter tubing, I have not had my hands on one so no real world experience.
They made the Twenty with several different styles of handle bars, they varied from year to year. I have the highest rise ones they also turn back more than most of the other models. Replacement seat posts in alloy and long lengths are a given. I have ridden mine up to 45 miles in a day with no real problems, but I am not a fast rider, I prefer to meander. I did upgrade to alloy rims, kool stop pads and new cables, made a huge difference in the braking. Never really noticed any issues with the shifting.
Aaron
They made the Twenty with several different styles of handle bars, they varied from year to year. I have the highest rise ones they also turn back more than most of the other models. Replacement seat posts in alloy and long lengths are a given. I have ridden mine up to 45 miles in a day with no real problems, but I am not a fast rider, I prefer to meander. I did upgrade to alloy rims, kool stop pads and new cables, made a huge difference in the braking. Never really noticed any issues with the shifting.
Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
07-30-17, 10:46 AM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,513
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
THE RALEIGH TWENTY
You know of my affection for these bikes and with the recent acquisition of a Phillip's 20 (which I will be building up for my mother in law) we have five of them in our family and a Raleigh Saffron which is a 20 inch wheeled lady's bike.
Excluding my super modified P20, our other 20's are mostly stock although I have upgraded the rims on mine and my wife's pair, upgraded the brakes, and adjusted the gearing by swapping in larger rear cogs. On this, the 20 likes an even / odd combination to get the right chain tension as the dropout is short and even pairings of cogs and chain wheels can cause issues. Your stock cog is probably a 15 tooth which is there to give it the same gearing as a conventional Raleigh Sports 3 speed which is also geared too high for anything but flat riding.
One of the joys of owning a 20 is that you will get to know what pootling is all about... they were never intended to be raced but rather, ridden at a more moderate pace.
Once you figure out the setting of the hub you should be able to forget about it and as for handling... the bike is so stable that you can take corners at speed in a more upright position than you are used to.
On the other hand... this bike is a little racier even though it was built up to work as a touring bike and has no issues with rain or poor braking.
1973 Phillip's 20 (super modified)
My other 20... am thinking of putting on some studded Marathons for wintery riding as these bikes are extremely stable and the IGH id perfect for wet and cold weather.
You know of my affection for these bikes and with the recent acquisition of a Phillip's 20 (which I will be building up for my mother in law) we have five of them in our family and a Raleigh Saffron which is a 20 inch wheeled lady's bike.
Excluding my super modified P20, our other 20's are mostly stock although I have upgraded the rims on mine and my wife's pair, upgraded the brakes, and adjusted the gearing by swapping in larger rear cogs. On this, the 20 likes an even / odd combination to get the right chain tension as the dropout is short and even pairings of cogs and chain wheels can cause issues. Your stock cog is probably a 15 tooth which is there to give it the same gearing as a conventional Raleigh Sports 3 speed which is also geared too high for anything but flat riding.
One of the joys of owning a 20 is that you will get to know what pootling is all about... they were never intended to be raced but rather, ridden at a more moderate pace.
Once you figure out the setting of the hub you should be able to forget about it and as for handling... the bike is so stable that you can take corners at speed in a more upright position than you are used to.
On the other hand... this bike is a little racier even though it was built up to work as a touring bike and has no issues with rain or poor braking.
1973 Phillip's 20 (super modified)
My other 20... am thinking of putting on some studded Marathons for wintery riding as these bikes are extremely stable and the IGH id perfect for wet and cold weather.
What is the rear spacing and was a bugger to fit your 20 with gears? I have a guy local to me here that has a rear wheel off a recumbent and a 7 speed cassette on it. The price is cheap enough and i am wondering if it will fit without too many modifications? I assume a claw hanger for the rear mech and then the wheel if it is spaced properly.
What are your thoughts/
Alternatively, I am also looking at doing a 2 speed rear using an old 7 speed shimano set of cogs as someone else here on bikeforums did.
Last edited by scale; 07-30-17 at 10:53 AM.
07-30-17, 12:38 PM
#46
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
What is the rear spacing and was a bugger to fit your 20 with gears? I have a guy local to me here that has a rear wheel off a recumbent and a 7 speed cassette on it. The price is cheap enough and i am wondering if it will fit without too many modifications? I assume a claw hanger for the rear mech and then the wheel if it is spaced properly.
What are your thoughts/
Alternatively, I am also looking at doing a 2 speed rear using an old 7 speed shimano set of cogs as someone else here on bikeforums did.
What are your thoughts/
Alternatively, I am also looking at doing a 2 speed rear using an old 7 speed shimano set of cogs as someone else here on bikeforums did.
A claw hangar can be used and you may find that the chain clearance is a problem, swapping in two Shimano 3 speed cogs is painless and these replace the Shimano cog and spacers nicely.
07-30-17, 02:05 PM
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,513
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
My custom P20 has a custom made rear triangle with 132.5 spacing to handle what is now a 9 speed block... the original drop outs on a 20 will not allow you to use the outermost cog on a cassette because the chunky chain stay interferes with this.
A claw hangar can be used and you may find that the chain clearance is a problem, swapping in two Shimano 3 speed cogs is painless and these replace the Shimano cog and spacers nicely.
A claw hangar can be used and you may find that the chain clearance is a problem, swapping in two Shimano 3 speed cogs is painless and these replace the Shimano cog and spacers nicely.
Sounds like the 2 shimano cogs is the way to go if i choose too. Thanks!
I am working on clean it up now. The paint on this thing is extremely weathered. No amount of cleaner wax is bringing the shine back. It adds to its character though.
The tires and rims are my next order of business.....in that order.
07-30-17, 06:59 PM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Greenville, NC
Posts: 1,386
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked 57 Times
in
40 Posts
I see this is a 5-year-old thread, and I skimmed through it, so apologies if this has already been said, but --
The shifting problem sounds like a cable/housing hangup, not a problem with the hub. My bet would be that the housing has been pinched at the point where the frame folds. This tends to happen with IGH folding bikes. Replace the housing, and you should be OK.
The shifting problem sounds like a cable/housing hangup, not a problem with the hub. My bet would be that the housing has been pinched at the point where the frame folds. This tends to happen with IGH folding bikes. Replace the housing, and you should be OK.
