JayNYC

I'm about the buy a new 650b wheelset for my Fuji Jari and am trying to figure out tires. I live in Manhattan, so I ride a lot of pavement – streets & paved trails. But what I really enjoy is gravel trails. Some of the ones I ride are a little rough, but I don't encounter truly rough gravel very often – just now and then. One of the biggest issues is that I don't want tan sidewalls – they'd look pretty horrible on my bike (pic here) – which rules out the ones by WTB, and generally really reduces my options. The two I'm considering are:

• Terrene Elwood Tough (525g)
• Teravail Rampart Durable (550g)

I'm thinking the tough/durable versions will be better because, being in NYC, I encounter stuff like broken glass pretty regularly. The Ramparts are smoother which is generally considered better on pavement, where the Elwoods have more tread (slightly knobby). The reviews of (the "light & supple version of) the Ramparts (Gravel Bike, Chainslap) say they do pretty well on gravel despite being fairly smooth, and likewise the reviews on Riding Gravel say the Elwoods are decent on pavement despite not being smooth.

Given all the pavement I ride on I'd think the Ramparts might make more sense. But I'm a little surprised they're heavier than the Elwoods which have more tread. Both the reviews of the "light & supple", 510g) version of the Ramparts mention they had no problems with punctures. One review says "the 'Light and Supple' moniker is a little bit optimistic. At 45psi, they ride more like a very sturdy road tire." So maybe the light & supple version actually has adequate puncture protection. That said, I hate flats (especially when riding with other people).

So in my situation which tire would you choose – the Elwood or the Rampart – or something else?

Elvo

WTB Byway Tubeless

Lava

Just to throw out a third option to complicate your choice, I've been riding Gravelking slicks for the last 6 months on my fixed gear, and they seem pretty durable so far. No flats yet, but their use have been limited to city riding in that time. I'm using small diameter tires on that bike, but they feel as fast as any other road tire I've ridden, and I've read that people recommend them for non-rough gravel. Seems like they come in 650x48, are about the same weight (520g) as the other options, and most importantly, have black sidewalls!

JayNYC

Unfortunately, only seems to have tan sidewalls.

The GravelKing's are cheaper too. I'll look into them a bit further. Thanks!

Spoonrobot 

The GK slicks in 48mm ride similar to iron-shod wagon wheels. Would not recommend.

For some reason tire manufacturers are giving the slick versions of their tires much thicker tread than the knobbie versions. The Horizon has something like ~5mm of tread rubber while the byway has ~2.7mm of tread rubber and the resolute has ~2.5mm.

That's not surprising. Unless the rider is above 210 pounds that's way excessive pressure for a 47mm tire. Sidewall collapse during cornering for supple tires happens around 20-25 psi for riders between 160-190 and the good pressure range seems to be 22-38psi, IME. The casing tension and relative comfort level would be equivalent to a 23mm tire at 120+ psi.

I think your best options are the Rampart light and supple or the Compass Switchback Hill. Those are the two I'd ride if I needed black sidewalls.

HTupolev

At ~200lbs bike+rider I often pump my Rat Traps at around 40r/35f for smooth paved riding, and even pumped that stiff, I need to be careful when there are skinny-tired road bikes behind me to avoid and point out cracks and holes and stuff that I could comfortably ride over. I've also had experiences on places like plank bridges where I've needed to hit the brakes because the road bikes in front of me lost so much speed to the roughness.
And per Josh Poertner's data, the spring rate of a tire loses width-dependence as the deflector gets narrower. Wider tires do need lower pressures than narrower tires in order to achieve comparable compliance, but I think to a less dramatic degree than you think.

Regardless though, I probably wouldn't pump a Rampart to 45PSI and expect a super plush ride.

Spoonrobot 

I know the data, I read the same blog and follow the posts on Slowtwitch and elsewhere. Do a blind test of a 28mm tire at 8bar and a 23mm tire at 8bar and see if it matches the data. Riding on the road isn't going from flat, to 8mm bumps to flat. A 28mm tire at 8bar is significantly different than the chart would have you believe. I'm talking from experience, not spit-balling - I try to moderate and temper what I see in the real world with what I read online.

Regardless, a Switchback hill is significantly more supple than a Rampart. I haven't been able to test very well but I estimate SBH requires 12-15% more pressure for the same relative sag percent/rolling speed as the Rampart due to the tire design. So your 40r/35f would be more equivalent to ~34-35r/29-31f in the Rampart. 45psi would be almost 25% more pressure than what you're running if the reviewer had the same bike+rider weight. Pump them up to 48r/44f and see how they ride.

Although I was talking only rider weight. Figure my remark as at least 235 rider+bike weight.

The spring rate of supple balloon and demi-balloon tires also behaves differently than narrower tires, as well as wheel diameter being a factor. A supple 650b tire 40mm+ wide has much more bounce and vertical motion at the same sag rate percentage as a narrower tire once pressures get high and sag percent gets low. Say a 23mm tire at 3% sag is going to be much more comfortable because it has significantly less spring up/back force than a 48mm tire at 3% sag. It's definitely not a linear relationship, which the data for narrower tires does not directly show but does suggest.

Also, keep in mind that a big part of the wide-tires marketing and "science" is based around the idea that riders cannot or have a very difficult time recognizing and evaluating feedback. This is a massively sweeping dismissal and should be recognized anytime discussion occurs.

A lot of science isn't robust on the face and is using other non-robust science as a building point. So being able to observe and evaluate is more important than just being able to read and apply. More expensive for sure but much better.

JayNYC

HTupolev

I don't see how it would matter for NYC riding which casing you choose. They use the same tread design, and both casings are just thin rubber-coated fabric.

tangerineowl

For the kind of riding you're planning on doing I'd stick to a file-tread, or similar with small knobs at the side.

I've ridden the Elwood (Light) on paved for long stretches. Probably would do the trick at higher pressures (to improve rolling resistance), but I personally found it a little sticky/draggy.

Its too bad you don't want tan-wall, as I would have suggested the Simworks Volummy (42?). Quite a bit of robustness about it.

JayNYC

JayNYC

mstateglfr 

For what its worth, there have been tire combos that are different design and its meant to be that way. The iconic Panaracer Smoke and Dart being perhaps one of the most popular examples. Totally different tread for front and back.

Also, some ride different width tires for road, gravel, and MTB. Sometimes its due to frame clearance limitations and sometimes its their own little experiment in life.

Beyond the tire fitting the wheel and frame/fork, there are no set rules for tire buying,

JayNYC

So I wound up ordering a Rampart "Durable" for the back and a Rampart "Light & Supple" for the front. I was a bit surprised when I weight them though… The light & supple tire was 531g (advertised to be 510g, so 21g overweight), and the durable version was 537g (advertised to be 550g, so 13 grams underweight). The "durable" was only 5.4g heavier than the "light & supple". It makes me wonder if they're not the same tire with different badging, and they just mark the heavier ones that come off the production line "durable" and the lighter ones "light & supple". Very weird.

chas58

That should do you well - in theory at least. Their Elwood has about 100g difference between light and durable constructions - surprised these are the same. I like a light supple front tire - gives me better feel and cush, and the weigh savings is a plus. A little more protection in the rear gives some piece of mind - I never flat on the front unless I hit something pretty hard.