avocado

I love everything about my Miyata 210 touring/light trails/cx bike except the wheel size. It's set up for 27" wheels, which limits the knobby tire selection to 1 or 2 not-great options.

Does anyone know of a canti brake that has enough adjustability to fit 700c wheels to the frame? I'd rather stick to traditional centerpull cantilevers, but if there's a V-brake that will allow for the conversion, that would be fine, too.

Thanks!

old and new

My take: I would much sooner leave the 27" wheels on it, irrespective of one's perceived lack of tire availabilty, more 27" tires can be had lately than 15 years ago in my experience. Even 1 1/8 tires are mighty fat. Certain brand models.

I don't care for canti-brakes, my oppinion. The fact is that I've seen a couple of accounts lately here that've clearly indicated that canti-brk. retro-fitting is problematic on older close-spaced brake caliper bosses. Center pull and Cantis are different.
Converting to 700 wheels is no walk in the park either, though perhaps a combined project of both brake & wheel conversion simultaniously might make more sense. The 210s are well thought-out from the factory as far as I've experienced. They stop OK
My take.

snappy

i'd try to get it to work with the brakes you have on it now. my understanding is that some of those older canti post setups are non-standard and don't work so well with modern canti brakes.

wrk101

Many of them do have enough adjustability. You only need to lower them 4mm. I would just grab a wheel and do the test, would take maybe five minutes.

I have a Miyata 215ST and have been considering the same change.




thrifty bill

Primitive Don

+1. I agree with wrk101, some cantis have quite a bit of vertical adjustment. I'm talking about cantis like those on 90s mountain bikes; I'm not that familiar with new ones.

southpawboston

the early shimano deore XT cantis from the deer's head era do well for adapting to 700c use on a fork with bosses designed for 27". model # BR-MC70. i have them on my shogun tourer and i test fitted a couple of 700C rims to see if they'd work. they do. plus they look really nice.

cycle_maven

The original cantis on some 210's were pretty good about that- they have a slot that is about right for 27" when the pad is at the top of the slot, and about right for 700c at the bottom of the slot.

Failing that, some folks have had some success with the Tektro CR720's (but others have had less) in changing to 700c wheels. Shimano Altus CT91 is also a possible choice, a better choice IMO. Check out this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=578138

jgedwa

The problem is sometimes more complicated than merely finding 4mm of vertical adjustment on the canti's. Early touring bikes had canti posts that are considerably closer together than the modern standard is. These two fact together (vertical and horizontal, so to speak) sometimes make for some dicey applications.

I made the switch on a Trek 620 that did not have the modern post spacing. So, I not only had to find canti's that adjusted a lot up and down, but also allowed for a lot of angle adjustment. I got it to work (after trying numerous sets of canti's), but it was not an elegant process.

jim

avocado

Thanks all, I'll play around with it and see how it goes. Good point about the horizontal spacing.

Abacus

So, I'm doing a bit of shameless thread mining here.

I've recently acquired a mid 80's 27" touring frame. The frame has bosses for cantilever brakes, but no brake calipers.

I will be fitting a 700C wheelset because (a) I already have several decent 700C wheelsets, and no 27" wheelsets, (b) I bought a bunch of 700C x 32mm Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires last year that I want to use, and (c) I have short legs. Improving standover height by any amount, no matter how small, helps.

It seems that Dia Compe 981s or Shimano BR-MC70s would be ideal because of their generous amount of vertical pad adjustment. I have, unfortunately, had no luck finding any.


So instead, I am thinking of these Pauls Motolites: https://www.paulcomp.com/motolite.html

Yes, I know they are vee brakes, not "real" cantis.

Yes, I know they are ugly.

But, it looks like they would be very adjustable, and would easily accommodate the required 4mm vertical adjustment required to work with the 700C wheels and 27" forks.

Ideas, anyone?

jtgotsjets

^The problem with most v-brakes on old touring bikes is the posts being spaced more closely than they are now. You may find yourself incapable of adjusting them outward far enough.

Then again it may work. But $125 per brake is a lot to gamble on.

ColonelJLloyd 

Abacus,
Perhaps the adjustability of some canti brakes combined with these might do the trick. I have no experience with this. I did, however, just pick up two vintage touring bikes with 27" wheels (1987 Schwinn Voyageur and 80s Raleigh Alyeska). The Raleigh has Araya anodized rims and the Schwinn Wolber Super Champions. Both have high flange hubs. I plan on equipping them with Panaracer Pasela Tourguard tires (available in 27 x 1 1/4 or 1 1/8).

And, yes, that Motolite contraption is hideous.

Why doesn't someone make cantilever brake pad holders that have a "step-down" post to serve this precise purpose? I suppose the market isn't big enough.

cycleheimer

I recently started using Kenda 27" x 1 3/8" tires. They are supposed to have a width of 37mm, and were incredibly inexpensive.

I have an older Fuji road bike with Mavic Module E 700 rims that work nicely with the old Dia-Compe centerpulls. It originally had 27" Ukai rims. There was just enough reach with the brake shoes dropped down to the limit.

swen0171 

Unless you get really lucky, or you don't mind severely diminished braking power, don't do it. This discussion in going on on another thread. I've heard and tried it all, old cantis and new, those old xt brakes. 4mm is a LOT of distance and it totally changes the physics of the brake. Plus, most of these frames have low clearance between canti post and rim, which really diminishes your ability to adjust that 4mm.

I know everyone is crazy about these touring frames but I've tried it three times and will never buy one again. Find a 27 inch tire you like or sell that frame to someone else willing to spend hundreds to "convert" it to 700c.

I'm sure some get lucky or don't mind average brakes, but I've never seen it and I've ridden or talked to several others who have also tried and failed.

swen0171 

The Motolights are the only real solution, but they will not fit on every vintage frame. I have a set of their Noe-retros and, though expensive, they are really great brakes that are also very beautiful.

This raises a question, by the time you get $200 worth of brakes on that frame you're running into the same money as buying a Surly frame and fork (given that good touring frames sell on ebay for $200+). Why not build a bike the way it was designed? Vintage touring with 27 inch, modern touring with 700c?

Abacus

Looks. Pure and simple.

I already have a 2003 Trek 520. The Trek will be the donor bike for most of the bits and pieces.

I understand the economic arguments, but it's just something I want to do.

cyclotoine

I converted a 1984 Miyata 610 a couple weeks ago, the original dia-compes had enough adjustment.

cyclotoine

This is exactly what I found to my very pleasant surprise on the said 1984 610 in my above post. Another friend of mine found that he had no problems with the original deores on his 1981 1000. I wonder if miyata did this on purpose or if it was just because the most power can be realized when the lever arm is at its longest. Either way I have was more than happy with the braking power with kool-stop brakes that I was able to achieve on the 610.

Abacus

Unfortunately, I don't have the original brakes.

So last night I tried on half a dozen different sets of canties and V brakes from a 1990 Trek 800 to a 2010 Mongoose hybrid. A couple wouldn't allow enough vertical adjustment, the others would.

The problem is that the Myata has 60mm spacing between the front forks, whereas all of the other bikes had about 80mm spacing. The result is that in order to make them fit I have to rotate the brake arms outwards. This, in turn, means that the brake pads aren't square with the rim's braking surface.

I have seen these old school Dia-Compe cantilevers for sale online.



I don't know what model they are. Anybody know if they would be worth a try?

swen0171 

I've tried those before. They should technically work but they didn't have a lot of stopping power as a result of both the short arms and the angle adjustment.

Those triangle-esque XT cantis from the late 80s work the best (though as I said I've given up).

good luck!

I'd be interested to hear what you think about the frame when you're done compared to the modern 520. My sense is the that modern bike will be a lot stiffer.

Keep us posted!

Abacus

@swen0171: Yes, I think you are right about the stiffness. When you see the Miyata next to the 520 the Miyata looks very delicate. The 520 has much thicker tubing, thicker forks, ahead headset, etc, etc.

I weigh 240#, so I think I will notice a difference Might be keeping the 520 as the daily ride...

A guy on another forum has some old-style Kool Stop canti brake blocks I can have, so I'll try those in the Dia Compes, (assuming they fit).

Failing that, I guess I have 2 options: either put in a 27" road fork and use long-reach calipers, or do the job properly and use 27" wheels instead.

I'm keen to try the 11 speed Alfine hub that Shimano are releasing later this year, and seeing as that will mean a wheel build no matter what bike it goes into I might as well have a 27" rear built up for it.

Drakonchik

Woefully inadequate brakes, not fit for any person over 100lbs with any pads, or any cable setup, due to their inherent geometry. You are warned.

A heavy rider, or a loaded average weight rider, will find these brakes to be a pathetic joke.

And that's despite the fact that this model was stock on so many classic Japanese touring bikes. Someone at Dia-Compe must have placed some bribes in the right places to for the OEM's to stock them on so many otherwise fine touring rigs.

Drakonchik

The center to center distance between the pivot bolt and the brake arm bolt is vital. The vast majority of 80s and 90s cantis have a lowest setting not less than 22mm. Those Shimano MC70 Deore XT brakes are not different from AT50, MT60, and MT62 in this respect: 22mm center to center as measured.

swen0171 

@abacus, If you like the way the Miyata rides you may end up with two real options. Have a local frame builder move the canti studs (unfortunately I couldn't find anyone in Indianapolis to do it for me) or just find a nice set of 27 inch wheels and use those Pasala 1 1/4 tires.

A cool idea to use that internal hub. That now sounds like a serious and fun project that might justify frame work and a powdercoat, etc. I would surely spend some time on that frame first if you are 240#. I am as well, or I was! (220# this morning after a great spring/summer of daily rides). At 220-240 I really had trouble getting comfortable on a 61cm Nishiki touring bike because of the frame flex, better if I rode a 58cm but that's a bit small. I went to the touring bikes because I'm heavy and I like a stiff frame, but older frames were just too soft for my taste. I think I have been spoiled by my Rivendell Quickbeam which rides like a sport touring/touring bike but is super stiff.

That said I still look at touring bikes and may even be tempted again now that I know about the Pasala tires available for 27inch.

yuzn

I have a 85-86 Bridgestone T700, which has 27", dia-compe Canti-Brake. Trying to convert it to 700C, dont' have much luck. I am running 27" front, 700C rear now. Here is what i have tried -



1. I tried Paul V brake which doesn't fit the front due to the close position of the mounting point. (for both 27" and 700C).

2. The original dia-compe canti works for rear 700C, but the stopping power suffers. The width of the rim is 22-24mm. I don't think it will work with a rim < 20 mm.

3. I borrowed AT-50 from 86 Miyata 610 (come with 700C) for the front brake with a 20mm width 700C rim, it doesn't work. I tried both original dia-compe and the At-50 with a wide (24-25mm) 700C rim, I can make it work, but I don't trust the stopping power.

4. I got a new set of CR-720, it won't work with the 86 Miyata 610 front (original 25mm 700C rim) by default due to the spacing. Looks like I have to make a few extra parts to make it work.



Not a plesant experience for me, but I haven't give up yet.