Originally Posted by bocobiking

First generation shifts better/smoother than second (I've tried both). Cable routing for the first generation is much easier to work on, and much, much easier than on the r7000 and r8000s (my wife has these). Plus, there are no triple cranksets when you get to 11-speed, and I love triples.

Originally Posted by genejockey

The 7800 STIs and RD on my Ritchey just shift better than the R7000s on my Canyon or the R8000s on my Litespeed. Plus the Canyon needed a new RD cable before it got to 5000 miles. The STIs where the cable DOESN'T come out the side are somewhat notorious for short cable lifespan.

Originally Posted by Attilio

We got a base model forester with CVT it gets great gas mileage if you drive easy with it but no fun at all. I miss the manual transmission. If I had the money 10-20 years ago I would have bought a bunch of cars with manuals to collect and enjoy. If you ride them like 2-3k miles a year I would have had cars for life and never had to bother with hybrids, CVTs, electric or any of that baloney. Yes electric is like 3x as fast but its just one noted. You can power to 120mph in a straight line instantly but it gets old quick. It has too much torque to start rotating the rear end under power early in a curve so you feel the electronic nanny kickcing in and there's no way you can fully disable the stability control. Not that you'd want to with that much power its like driving on ice and you'd die. Wish I had an unmolested, low mileage Honda S2000 or an 80s/90's european sub 2000lb hot hatch a la Renault Clio Williams or Peugeot 205 1.9 GTI. As Colin Chapman the guy who started Lotus there's that quintessential performance ingredient that is no longer added to cars that improves *ALL* performance elements equally: adding lightness.

Originally Posted by rsbob

All my cars up to my latest had manual transmissions. I still have a ‘71 914 with a 6 cylinder when I feel the need to ‘row through the gears’. Next cars will be electric that we can use to power the house for a couple of days when the power goes out.

Bike related content: I change shifting cables about every 10 years. Pretty much no-wear parts. Brake lever cables do get replaced every two years.

Originally Posted by Attilio

I would not because 9 speed drivetrains 20 years ago weren't going to be replaced with electronic shifters of which I wish to have no part of. I posted that as my motivation.

Originally Posted by PeteHski

I’ve got a Tesla and a 1982 Porsche 911. The latter never gets driven anymore. Track mode on the Tesla is an option for less restrictive stability control.

The problem with those lightweight 80s hot hatches is when you crash into a modern car. You die while they walk away with a bit of air bag rash.

Life moves on and when new things start to seem pointless it probably just means you are getting jaded with life. But I agree that a CVT Forester is never going to be fun to drive!

Originally Posted by rollagain

Don't hoard 'em; put them on a good frame and go out and enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Chandne

You could hoard a few but I suspect they will be available for a while. Just make sure you will keep that bike for a long time. I sort of did the same and ended up with useless-to-me parts since I gave up on 11-speed by getting a new bike that was 12-speed, electronic, and tubeless. Fortunately, some friends need all the tires, chains, rim brakes, etc.

Originally Posted by Attilio

Condolences. Have (had) a few friends with Teslas results all over the map several worship theirs and several have run away with their tail between their legs. The one main advantage is the intoxicating power but for same money the rest of the car other than technology for virtue signaling to your friends is decidedly inferior. Reliability is terrible according to CR the best of the bunch is the Tesla Model 3 which is about the same as "domestic" cars and we all know Ford, Chevy and Chrysler are junk. The service bulletins in the industry and greater number of NHTSA recalls for electric cars confirm this. Its great as a commuter car because you can just plug in at night never having to stop for gas but if you don't have garage (one friend doesn't) or as this outdoor lifestyle begs you then you take trips to remote areas the advertised range and charging times are a pipe dream only applicable if you drive gingerly (not using the power) and operate the car within a very narrow set of temperatures only seen in mid seasons in a few places. For me anyway spending a huge chunk of a long trip in a supercharger gets old fast. Also because these cars don't pollute they don't need to have OBD-2 diagnostics so figuring out what's wrong and repairing the car is proprietary which means once the car gets old but still good and driveable instead of taking to local mechanic for cheap when out of warranty you will be violated in the rear end by the stealership paying extortionate prices if you want to keep on the road past the warranty.

But don't take it from this luddite. You can read articles in national media (mostly fake news I get it but still something so darling as Electric cars to get this bad news means something) that new models are sitting on lots and people who bought the first generations the last five years are trading in back for internal combustion which are generally better in all categories except for that straight line performance. You have to have a very special set of desires in a car or a huge fear that somehow global warming is real even though been kayaking and near the ocean all my life and I haven't seen the water level budge an inch except for tidal fluctuations despite being told all the polar ice has melted to deal with all the baloney and drawbacks this yet to mature technology presents.

But that is why I want to stay mechanical. With cars I have more options not what I would really like but call it good enough. I don't want to be forced into "upgrading" on the cycle of planned obsolescence to a system I don't see having any advantages for me that I also subjectively like less having tried it and introducing baggage like remembering to charge or having to not lose yet another charger.

Regarding the Forester yes the CVT and powertrain per se isn't that fun but I was smitten by the handling. It is a base model with steel wheels, pretty light for modern cars, and a huge departure because I can get some lift throttle oversteer not like 80's 911 but controllable. I also love that I can drive it in an enthusiastic way laying on the gas exiting turns (it also oversteers a bit!) and get over 350mi to the tankful and fill up in a couple minutes time anywhere, any place.

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer

Let's be frank

Originally Posted by PeteHski

You are living in the past.

Originally Posted by terrymorse

A past that had lighter weight bikes, faster wheelsets, and more interchangeable components.

Originally Posted by PeteHski

So you never get tempted by new bikes then?

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer

.

Let's be frank: a lot of the so-called 'innovation' in the sorry bike industry is for marketing buzz, planned obsolescence and customer inventory churn. Like 13 x 1 drivetrains, fat tires and discs on road bikes. Road bikes are for going fast over long distances over good roads. But right now, the current thing is 'gravel endurance', and for road riding, these 'innovations' make a road bike heavy and slow.

Things will swing around; they always do in the bike industry.

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer

Not hording but smart planning.

• Dura-Ace 7800 10-speed shifters. Light, precise and totally reliable. Best Shimano shifting ever, which deteriorated after Shimano put the shift cable routing under the bars, which resulted in extra friction and now the shifters eat cables. And with 12-speed, we have 2 extraneous cogs that require you to pay $200+ for a cassette and $75 for a chain.
• Campagnolo Record 10-speed gear with the carbon giblets and the 13-29 cassette option. I don't know how a groupset can get any better, although the shifting is a little firmer and distinct than with DA 7800. But at least the shifters don't eat cable ends every 2,000 miles.

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer

Let's be frank: a lot of the so-called 'innovation' in the sorry bike industry is for marketing buzz, planned obsolescence and customer inventory churn. Like 13 x 1 drivetrains, fat tires and discs on road bikes. Road bikes are for going fast over long distances over good roads. But right now, the current thing is 'gravel endurance', and for road riding, these 'innovations' make a road bike heavy and slow.

Things will swing around; they always do in the bike industry.

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer

For those newb road riders who have no sense of history and only know what current marketing feeds them, here is the optimum road bike regardless of vintage or how much you can afford:

• UCI-stickered team-level carbon frame circa 2015. Frame weighs 800 grams. Fork is 300g. Round tubing profiles, as aero is heavy. BB86.
• External cable routing. Sure, internal routing looks kewl and saves 0.01 watts, but it is a major PITA.
• Rim brakes of course, unless you are using your road bike kitted with racks and panniers for loaded camping in the rain. Discs are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.
• Low profile carbon wheels with 23mm tires pumped hard. If you are riding solo on the flats, then deeper profile rims. If you get flats daily I suppose tubeless makes sense.
• Tubulars are superior to clinchers (including tubless) in every respect, particularly rotating mass, flat resistance, flat safety, but if you are not experienced with them, it's probably too late to join the club.
• SRAM Red 10 or 11 speed, or Dura-Ace 7800 or Campy Record 10 or 11. Shifting hasn't gotten any better, plus it saves having to put out big $ to afford a 12-speed chain & cassette with superfluous gears.

Whole package: 16 pounds or less. Again, this is for fast road riding on first-world pavement, and not jumping off curbs or pounding gravel. Spending $12,000 on a 2023 road bike might get you close to these performance specs. Close but not quite.

Originally Posted by One Wheel

I want a bike that is reasonably fast, and sometimes unreasonably fast, anywhere that a road map will take me. I more or less agree on most of your list. Rim vs. Disk is personal preference, and to some level you're just wrong about wide tires. The only drawback to wide tires is a slight aero penalty, and if you're willing to give that up on cables it's worth giving it up on tires, too.

Originally Posted by Dave Mayer

For those newb road riders who have no sense of history and only know what current marketing feeds them