Maelochs

Thank you I will check them out but ... happily i have enough bike clothes to last me until I lose a lot of weight ... which is a Lot of clothing. ....

Seattle Forrest

I was hoping somebody would summarize the video for those of us who won't watch it. Thank you for doing that.

I'm probably going to order a 100 % yak wool base layer that costs a lot more than Castelli shorts so I'm probably the wrong person to ask.

canklecat

Yeah, it varies a lot. Not so much by manufacturer but by material. I suspect they all buy from the same handful of specialty textile mills, then make jerseys according to their own specs.

And manufacturers upgrade materials over time. The current Pearl Izumi arm warmers, for example, are much different from the set I bought at the outlet store, dated 2012. The newer PI arm, knee and leg warmers are softer, fleecier (without being thick) and more comfortable. My older set feels a bit coarser inside.

I don't think the reviewer in that video was pulling any shenanigans or shilling. But he could do with some editing. Around 90 seconds to 5 minutes is plenty for most videos.

Yup, there's a huge markup in clothing. As a kid in New York I knew folks in the business. As the saying goes in the old neighborhood, "Never pay retail."

However there are valid business reasons for the high markups. Fashion is fickle and there are huge losses in styles that don't sell. And there's a lot of theft in the garment business. In the old days lots of product disappeared between the manufacturer and retailer. It's probably not as rampant now with more monitoring and account on the fly.

Nowadays the biggest source of theft is from Chinese counterfeits and even US based knockoff artists who rip off designs, graphics, etc., and have their products made in Asia to minimize their risk of being sued.

So the legit high end apparel makers are forced to continue selling their newest annual lineup at inflated prices to compensate for the enormous losses.

Best I've tried personally is Pearl Izumi. In particular their Transfer fabric baselayers are remarkable. They're often discounted a bit on Nashbar and elsewhere. Well worth buying one to try. I'd recommend the sleeveless because it's the most versatile. I wear mine year round, other than the muggiest summer rides. It can also be worn in summer under work or dress shirts. To me the wicking fabric feels better than sweat pouring freely down my back and chest.

But it's really the fabric choice, not so much the manufacturer. Pearl Izumi just happens to choose better fabrics, so their stuff is more likely to remain odor free longer. And by most standards PI is only a mid-grade product, not really high end. I'd imagine the more expensive makers choose the best fabrics to distinguish themselves from the awkwardly named stuff like "Spotti" and "Arsuxeo".

BTW, I'm really nitpicking that Koraman long sleeve jersey I mentioned early. For $20 it ain't bad at all. The pocket design is terrific -- three slip pockets large enough for most phones, a folded up tire, etc., and a smaller zippered pocket for wallet, keys, road ID, etc.

Koraman apparel appears to be pretty comparable to Spotti and Arsuxeo (unfortunate names, yet another reason why the international trade still needs fluent local translators who are thoroughly familiar with idioms and casual usages of language). They all sell very similar looking items at similar prices, with minor detailing differences -- pocket designs, etc.

For me, cheaper jerseys make sense, as long as they hold up for a couple of years. I'm not fast enough for the differences between casual fit, race fit and skinsuits to matter.

thehammerdog

Holmes why did you buy Rapha product? They sell nice stuff but the price is silly...Are you happy with the product?
Assos is also crazy expensive....I ride REI sale rack bibs....

TimothyH

Assos and Rapha clearance and sale items are often competitively priced. Rapha especially, is not as expensive as people think.

There are jerseys for $37 and winter tights for $87.50 on the Rapha clearance page right now.
Also keep in mind that some Rapha gear comes with:
- 30 day trial with full refund if you don't like it
- free lifetime crash repair
- free lifetime repair if the garment fails "even after significant use"
- 50% off a smaller size if you lose weight and need to size down

There is a lot of value and if you watch their clearance page you can get great gear at a very good price.


-Tim-

Doge

Got link?

Seattle Forrest

@Doge

https://kora.net/usa/shola-230-zip-men-s.html

WhyFi

So yak wool is like merino wool on steroids? Hmm. Report back with your impressions.

Seattle Forrest

Will do.

I'm a sucker.

Doge

Can't decide if it should be underwear or crew.

I was in the arctic circle this month. I could have used. SoCal is a cold 60 now.

San Pedro

Anyone have good luck with AliExpress? I'm interested in some of the jerseys I can get on there. If I do that might get some glasses too from there too.

Maelochs

yeah, I had it playing int he background and still found it to be mostly empty space. Five minutes he could have covered the topic thoroughly.


Well, not sure the mafia is into the cycling industry yet ...

But since you know fashion ... you know that name is most of what's sold. Unless the fabric is crap and the stitching sloppy .... (Nashbar has some issues with that in their shorts w while back, seem to have dropped that manufacturer) the biggest difference between Nashbar and Rapha is the tag.

I am with you ... if it lasts and it wicks, it works.

Bibs are a slightly different story, because bad bibs hurt. PI bibs have always been good for me, nad those new Funkier bibs as well.

The chamois tech has been developed to teh point where even top-of-the-lower-third priced bibs have the high-tech pads ... Many $30 and $40 bibs have serious technical chamois.

And yes ... I deal with a lot of bad Asian translations. And a lot of Asians who refuse to believe that their grasp of the English language is in any way inferior to some fool who has actually been living in an English-speaking country since birth. Has made for some interesting editing discussions---and some truly comical advertisements.

WhyFi

Do you own some Rapha?

I don't own either, Rapha or Nashbar, but I do have garments from various pricepoints, and to say that the label is the biggest difference doesn't come close to squaring with my perception of reality.

Do I find that there are diminishing returns? Absolutely, but sometimes it's that extra 10% of comfort that means that I no longer have that one little thing bothering me on a ride, whether it's a seam that's rubbing in the wrong place, the chamois that's not quite right, or having to tug up or down because the garment's not quite staying where I want it, etc. Do some people have a higher tolerance for these niggles than others? Without a doubt - if you can ride a solo 5-hour century in Hanes tighty-whities and jorts, more power to you, but that doesn't mean that there aren't tangible and valuable (to some) differences between other garments.

Maelochs

Okay ... I guess if you buy something that doesn't fit you, it doesn't fit.

The fact that the label says "Assos" or the price tag says "Just sign over your paycheck" doesn't mean that the thing fits, or that it doesn't have a seam which hits just the wrong place on Your body. But particularly for jerseys and also (in my experience) with shorts and bibs,. mot manufacturers have figured out the simple stuff ... it's not like bike short and shirts are new developments. Even the Chinese knockoffs get the dumb stuff right ... they just cheap out on everything that goes into the actual physical garment.

If you bought some stuff that didn't fit You, specifically ... oh, well. Was it bargain-basement cheap? Was it midgrade?

Since you say you don't buy bargain-basement and you don't buy high-end (extrapolating) then you must buy mid-grade stuff ... maybe in the Garneau/Pearl Izumi spectrum.

They also know how to make good clothes ... so if one of their products doesn't work for you ... it might be that specific design and your specific body.

I have a closetful of Nashbar and Performance Bike and Pricepoint jerseys ,... and so Cannondale jerseys (PI/Garneau level.) They are all good.

How much better than a jersey which lasts, fits well, dries fast, doesn't stink, and has the pockets I need, can a $300 jersey be? What else can it offer that I need a jersey to do?

I see your point---if the ultra-cheap stuff is poorly designed or made, yeah, it is just junk. And almost certainly, the really top-end stuff won't be junk.

That doesn't mean everything else, or even anything else is.

I am with you ... a little irritation, even a tag that rubs, a seam that twists, bibs or shorts which sag a tad and catch the nose iof the saddle too often when I am moving around---just not acceptable. I will park a pair of shorts or bibs if they don't offer complete comfort and support. My time on the bike Matters to me, more than any garment, no matter how much I paid.

But once you get past that very low threshhold of "It works" the rest is hype. Assos and Rapha are not twenty times better at just being jerseys than the $7 Nashbar jerseys I own. They might be a little better ... or not ... but what you are paying for is the name.

Come on. We all understand the idea of luxury goods. A Rolex doesn't tell time better ... it tells other things. A Rapha jersey is not per se better than any other jersey except for truly crappy jerseys--and all jerseys are better than those..

And you know ... that Rapha jersey, depending on its cut and your build ... might have a seam which rubs you the wrong way.

nycphotography

Nice spam promo link disguised as discussion.

WhyFi

That's my point - maybe it's a very low threshold for you and your riding, but that's certainly not the case with others, which means that the rest isn't just hype and it's not just the name that you're paying for.

And the "20x better" is such a nonsensical argument. A $12 sock doesn't need to be 24x better (how is that quantified, anyway?) than the two-pack that you picked up at the dollar store, they just need to be $11.50 better. The same goes for $7 jerseys vs $140 jerseys.

Doge

Current kits pretty much get washed after each ride.
The Yak wool reminds me of when my entire kit was wool. I lived in a cooler area and we'd hang the jersey over a rack after a couple hour ride and use it again.

We all seem to need more jerseys now. Or I'm more sensitive to hygiene. But the material makes a big difference in how the thing smells after use.

SkepticalOne

Have you owned Rapha jerseys? I tried one to see what all the fuss was about (classic II in nondescript black) and have since migrated from mostly LG to a mix of Rapha and Danny Shane. The fabrics and design details are really rewarding and my own desire to pay more for these items has nothing to do with luxury branding. I'm wondering if you've had a chance to spend any time wearing or riding with the items you're likening to Rolex - a comparison that I think is misinformed. The items are not 20X better, but they are generally better...the same 'diminishing return' price scale as all things cycling whether it be frames, grouppos, or wheelsets. A more appropriate comparison might be comparing Dura Ace to 105. Welcome to cycling.

WhyFi

I'll agree with you that it's misinformed but, amusingly, I think that it's actually an apt comparison for other reasons.

Back in the day, Rolex built their reputation by being the makers of no-nonsense tool watches - reliable, robust movements in tank-like cases, they'd keep ticking no matter what you threw at them. Whether it was a diving watch 100m under the surface or a chronograph at the track, getting banged up in the pits and while keeping accurate lap times, they just worked. No one bought a Rolex for status - they bought them because they were the right tool for the job. The perception of Rolex as a luxury brand came later and, even now, it's primarily held by those that are looking in from the outside.

Wileyrat

Living in Tucson, I've found I prefer jerseys that have at least 3/4 length zippers, and decent inexpensive jerseys tend not to have them.

Having said that, I can still find jerseys on sale for 40-50 bucks that meet my criteria.

MRT2

For real. Now, I have no opinion about high end jerseys because they are generally race cut and don't fit me. But mid priced jerseys that retail from $60 to $80 are often discounted deeply. Just in the last few months, I picked up a new/old stock Mt. Borah jersey for $10 at a bike swap, two Primal jerseys from Nashbar and Performance for $25 and $30 each, a Pearl Izumi long sleeve jersey for $25, also from nashbar. And, I bought a bunch of women's jerseys and a pair of shorts from a local bike shop for my wife for $20 to $30 a piece.

MRT2

That is true. I used to be a watch nerd (or as the online watch community calls it, a WIS). Back in the day when luxury watches were tiny, thin, and gold, Rolex made robust watches like the Datejust, the Daytona, the Explorer, and the Submariner. Watches made for doing stuff, like diving, mountain climbing, etc...

I think the luxury Rolex thing came about in the 80s, when it became a yuppie status symbol.

I am not a Rolex guy as I don't like that yuppie status symbol image. And I consider them overpriced. But I understand the appeal of a quality watch. A cheap watch tells time as well as an expensive watch, or sometimes even better. But that is not the point. A cheap, quartz will work fine for a period of time, probably a few years. But the cheap metal the case and/or bracelet is made of will get beat up after a couple of years. and if the movement breaks, it is probably not worth fixing. Better quality watches are made out of higher quality materials and look and feel good on the wrist for decades. My two go to watches these days are a vintage Omega from the late 1960s and a modern Omega from around 2000. Both are high quality automatics that tell, and will tell decent time for years, and when they stop telling good time, can be repaired.

Seattle Forrest

I backpack occasionally in the summer. Gotta pack light, so I'll wear the same thing for three or four days in a row. (And then have a clean change of clothes waiting for me in the car.) Wool is great for that, still smells tolerable after days of wear. I've heard the bacteria in our sweat that makes body odor can't live in wool.

MRT2

I bought my first, and so far only wool baselayer a few years ago. I could have really used this shirt years ago when I was backpacking around Europe. In those days, I wore cotton T shirts under either cotton, or old fashioned polyester shirts and sweaters. Merino wool would have been much better.

thenewjs

ALL OF THIS!

Rapha is very competitively price when on sale. Even at full price, its competitive to your "higher end" Pearl izumi and ect. From what I see people like to compare it to the stuff they can find in REI and from my experience REI doesn't sell gear comparable to Rapha.

IIRC, Rapha's 30 day return policy doesnt include used gear! ICBW!

Just my opinion/experience. In no way am I saying this is law.