Allegheny Jet

That would be wishful thinking for me.

sarals 

Rain today. It hasn't rained much at all here this winter, but that doesn't mean I want to ride in it. Trainer workout, 1 minute over/under intervals X 5. It went just fine! Then I went to my chiropractor. She told me, again, that it's a good thing I'm fit and toned or I'd be in real trouble. Reassuring....

Bandera

Interesting article in VN.
Seems that my old school coach's regimen of putting in those long winter base miles at a "conversational" pace to build into the hard work of the racing season wasn't just old-fashioned hooey after all.
What's next: Fixed gears for base miles too?

"First, an increase in base training volume improves mitochondrial size and function. This adaptation affects oxidative enzymes, which increase fat-oxidation capacity.

Second, aerobic training improves lactate-clearance capacity."

Diagnosis: How many base miles do you really need? | VeloNews.com

IBOHUNT

"Shirley you can't be serious"

IBOHUNT

1 min christopher cross. :like:

Racer Ex 

I read that the other day. The concept is sound. The devil, like in all things, is in the details. Reading through the article reminded me that most of these case studies are based on kids doing elite races, many of whom have a tall ceiling they haven't hit yet. It also sounded like his first coach had him on a program that one of my old coaches started down after reading a paper that showed results getting rid of base entirely. I ended up switching coaches not long after that.

Some of the "old school base" advocates had a rule that you NEVER went above that conversational pace, which in itself has some flaws. My thought is that it was put in place as much to keep every group ride turning into a race as for any actual structural benefit. And a lot of folks empty their physical fatigue bucket overdoing LSD (long slow distance), or their mental fatigue bucket doing endless trainer rides if they are in places where weather is an issue.

Moderation is not intrinsic in cycling.

There are a lot of layers that can be added on to traditional "base" that will improve and accelerate the process, and for some folks (like track sprinters) they will be better off doing a little base and more of something else. I like to keep a least a small amount intensity in my programs year round, there's a physiological benefit but probably more important is the psychological benefit of being able to mentally calibrate an interval and not losing the brain "over ride" of discomfort.

A lot of the "old school" theories were based not in lab science, but in the field science of trial and error and built up historical models. Big value to that. Ex rode a fixed gear in the winter and did "Y" workouts, and he came out flying. I tried it and it worked, Etc. Determining why those things worked with lab science gives us a nice starting point to improve further on that model.

Of course then someone gets sick and we toss it out the window

Bandera

No doubt about it, we were young aggressive testosterone-poisoned dolts willing to throw down anytime. Our coach had just the recipe to keep that under control, build club cohesion and do some solid base training "back when". Putting us on restricted fixed gears ensured reasonable loads, limited speeds and with the built-in negative reinforcement loop of the FG forced neuro-muscular training for a smooth pedaling style. Idiot-proof for yet another generation of idiots and straight-up Skinnerian conditioning.

The club that I was in had a culture of early training ride sing-alongs with the paceline chanting "rounds".
Can't recall which "bottle of beer" is on the wall or out of breath to sing "row-row-row"?
Going too hard, everyone back off.

Now with some good science we can come back to re-visit what worked and why from that deep well of culture and practical experience and move "forward".
Assuming the Old School was all superstitious hooey is shallow and arrogant thinking, all too common today and distinctly 41-ish.

-Bandera

revchuck 

"I am serious, and don't call me Shirley!"

sarals 

Nervous?
Yes.
First time?
No, I've been nervous lots of times.

sarals 

Ex has me on a "low base diet", being one of his aforementioned "track sprinters". I had some worry about "speed endurance", not having a lot of base. Bah, humbug. That certainly has not been an issue. Ex's approach, as he described it, certainly has worked for me.

Oh, and today I had a gym workout, strength training. I do two circuits, with lots of stretching and rolling between certain groups of exercises (I think I said that before....). On the second set, I up the weights on the machines. I've been incrementally increasing those weights over the course of the off season, and today I did 205 pounds on the leg press, 60 pounds on the calf lift, and 80 pounds on the glute machine. These certainly aren't Kristina Vogel numbers, and I won't live long enough to see what she can do when she gets as old as I am - but I am doing okay, thank you very much! I thought today, after the workout, that I should set a goal for weights. I should, yes. I just have to decide what is reasonable, helpful, and won't hurt me. And when I should reach it.

I'm liking my gym workouts!

Allegheny Jet

"These certainly aren't Kristina Vogel numbers, and I won't live long enough to see what she can do when she gets as old as I am - but I am doing okay, thank you very much!"


I like your thinking Sarals! You are morphing into a sprinter!!!

I'm on the same page regarding the track racing prep. I'm doing my own circuits of death this winter and increasing the resistance/intensity and time of each task. Right now I'm doing three sets on 2:20 with the intention of getting to the next station and moving within 20" allowing for 2 minutes of work per station. My watch has the countdown time on it and chimes when its time to move on.

I have two fused ankles which doesn't allow me to proper squats so I'm working on other parts of resistance to imporve. My circuit consist of bike in OG, versa climber, bike, rower, bike, upside down bosu ball squat, bike, box steps with wieghts. My long term goal it to increase the station time to 2:50, and on other days spend 1 minute at each station for more specific focus. Anyone see where I'm going there?

I'm also doing trainer and roller intervals once a week on each for strength and mechanics. One session might have me do 15" at 400+ watts then 45 seconds at 300 watts for 4 minutes. Herme's see where I'm going there?

Hermes

Yep.

Hermes

As Kristina Vogel ages, she will probably lift more weight.

The masters women of today are setting the bar for future generations. The younger women look at records and etc and say, I can beat that. And they will.

Heathpack 

The interesting thing about articles like the one you link to is that they’re titled something like “How Many Base Miles Do You Really Need?” and then they turn out to be a single case study of a 25 yr old cat 1 about to turn pro. With the implication being that’s what “you” should do too, as if there are no physiologic differences between a 50 year old former couch potato and a 25 yr old professional athlete. Or that cycling discipline, or gender, or occupation, or the stress of feeling the “need” to watch your kids soccer game and also ride huge base miles are irrelevant to answering the question How Many Base Miles Do You Actually Need?

Bandera

An excellent question with the answer: It Depends.
How much base does a Junior, Cat 3 who never sees anything other than a local Crit, woman track sprinter, new senior club rider or Nat'l team stage racer need?
Certainly not the same, but base can't be ignored for a well balanced training program in my opinion.

Endurance, Power and Speed.
What's the right recipe in training to get the tasty results we all crave?
This thread in the sub-forum is certainly a good place to share those recipes.

I'm off on the FG before the rain comes in, Granny's recipe but an old favorite of mine.

-Bandera

Voodoo76

Yea, an N=1 Self Selected sample I'm always cautious when looking at studies involving elite endurance athletes. I would bet most of them could do the polar opposite of what is prescribed in the study and still be within 5% in the end. That would make an interesting experiment. The "George Costanza" study

Bandera, I came up through a similar system of FG/Spin/LSD type training. It was in vogue in the running world as well (70's, 80's). My opinion now is that taken to extreme it leaves holes in development for some riders, ability to push a big gear for example.

A bigger change now is how many of us are fast, or working to be fast, well into our 60's or later. There is no historical precedent for that. You can't just say "this worked historically for old dudes so it must have some merit" because nobody was training hard or riding competitively as long as they are today. (Based on rider results on this board Ex seems to be onto something developing older riders, or is very selective of who he works with.) Those long FG or Little Ring miles were being done by the 25 year old Voodoo. He could go out for 4 hours on a rainy 45 degree day, take a quick shower, eat whatever he felt like, go out to the bar till 1, get up at 6 & go to work, rinse and repeat. Fast foreword 35 years, I don't see the bang for the recovery buck with a large diet of long rides.

Allegheny Jet

Finished up with these yesterday as part of an indoor program I attend once a week. Highest HR I've seen for many years! I could of died!!! The task was ten seconds on and ten seconds off at 100+ cadence for 1', 2', 3', 4" with easy recovery matching the interval time.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qcp3maehm...49.43.png?dl=0

IBOHUNT

Ufda

Hermes

My TSB was negative for awhile so I took five days off and then restarted Saturday and Sunday. We rode the coast in San Diego on Saturday and then Camp Pendleton on Sunday. 4.5 hours of constant power endurance / tempo riding total for both days.

No singalongs or Kumbaya moments. It was just constant power along with doing some cadence variation.

Allegheny Jet

Three rounds of the circuits of death followed with some ice fishing intervals tomorrow.

IBOHUNT

How thick?

Racer Ex 

As a brick?

Going to try to Zwift a bit tomorrow and perhaps do some strength work. Foot goes from swollen to really swollen depending on work load and time on it, so everything is a "wait and see". Booked a desert/base mile in a month...fully refundable.

IBOHUNT

Good luck with the swollen bit.

I'm thinking he's on 8+ inches.

As much as I don't like Zwift I may have to jump back on it. Tried one of those longer trainer sessions and even when watching LivePD I got bored senseless...

Medic to strung out person "What year is this?"
strung out person "Obama"
Medic - "OK, what month is this?"
Person - "Obama"

Sad to see

Person in possession of drugs... "They ain't mine!"
Officer - "They were in your a**, how are they not your's?"
Person -"They ain't mine!"

OK then

Racer Ex 

My favorite episode of Cops, which is pretty much every episode:

"Is this your (purse/car/wallet/back pack)?"

"Yeah"

Cop finds drugs/stolen items/gun in purse/car/wallet/back pack.

"That/those aren't mine."

Racer Ex 

Any selectivity is pointed at being able to develop a good working relationship, and having people who lean towards being self starters. I've ended up with a pretty wide range of age and talent levels over the years, I don't really look at numbers or past training until we've started down the road.

I think it is a bit easier to relate to older riders when you're an older rider though, with all that it entails, and it doesn't hurt to not be a genetic freak. I'm the poster child for hard work and directed training.

But the biggest thing, I think, in pulling the most out of someone's potential is to look at them as individuals, and to stay away from cookie cutter plans or dogma. The good coaches I've used draw out a map, then tweak the route constantly as things change.

There's a lot of myopia in this sport. Everyone analyzes success, far fewer folks look at the abundance of failures, which tend to be written off with a simplistic "not tough enough" or "not training hard enough".