Iride01 

I'm finally getting to the point of re-painting my 78 Raleigh Competition GS which is Reynolds 531 tube. I'm also putting Shimano 105 5800 on it so the downtube shifters will be gone. The frame does not have bottle bosses and the plan is to add them to the seat tube and down tube before painting. Virtually everything on that frame for that period is clamp on. The cable stops on the top tube the DR on the seat tube and the downtube shifters are also clamp-on's.

So my main question is to get some thoughts on whether I should replace the clamp-on shifters with downtube braze-on shifter bosses and then add the adjustable cable stops that Shimano makes? Or simply add braze-on cable stops then use in-line adjusters? I've not run across baze-on adjustable stops, but I've not looked hard yet as I just realized this missing part of my project. I've got the Shimano adjustable cable stops on my Paramount that I converted to 105 5800 over a year ago. I've seldom needed to use them and comparing to the in-line adjusters on my son's Trek, I don't see where they are any harder of easier to mess with while riding. So which? Pro's, Con's? Don't need them? So any recommendations, thoughts or deriding comments in fun will be helpful.

The original Campy stuff on the bike is in pretty decent shape including the shift levers that are done up with the pretty detailing they did back then. So I'm thinking I'd put all that stuff up for sale and keeping the clamp on shifter boss will not make sense as the levers are part of it.

I'm not claiming to be a great welder, brazer or solderer, but I've done it before when needed and I'm planning on doing it myself as I have torches, gas and quite a bit of silver solder, though I don't know the percentages as it was stuff from my fathers shop when he passed on and is not labeled but I'm certain it's not the typical stuff you'd see used in plumbing and other low grade brazing uses. Since these are not critical parts of the frame I see no need to know for certain the bonding strengths or such. And if I do mess up, I have a friend that does this stuff for a living, though not on bicycles.

Andrew R Stewart 

Well, since you use the "repaint" term and not "restore" I say do what you want. I follow the Classic Rendezvous list and some there would say that the bike will loose any real value if the OEM nature is modified. I say do what will make your enjoyment more.

My preference would be to add bottle bosses, cable stops (slotted/split) all over with the DT ones having built in adjusters, running the gear cables below the BB (with a bolt on plastic guide), remove all the OEM stops and rear hanger. I might also consider filling the seat lug ears to reduce the chance of deformation in the future. Some serious filing/sanding to smoothen out the rough nature of the finish will make it look great, unlike 50% of the Raleighs I've seen.

What are your plans for the brake calipers and the brake reach the frame likely has. IIRC the Weineman 999s weren't short reach even with the 610 version. Also the OEM brake mounting bolts (not a center bolt as it isn't the pivot) were nutted and 105 these days are recessed nutted ones. If the reaches work out good drilling out the frame mounts is easy to do.

Any thoughts about rack mounts? Please say you'll get a nice wet paint job that's thin and shows detail. Last thing is to check out the seat stay top plates for any cracking around their edges, perhaps the most common no no on Raleighs of this era. Andy

Iride01 

The bikes in decent shape. A little surface rust has always been peeking out the original silver paint job since I got it. 2010 I think is when I bought it. But I don't think it's worth keeping original as it's not pristine enough to fetch much money. Nor is resale a consideration for me. When it serves no purpose I'll probably just give it away or sell it for a token sum to someone that will use it. Besides, I think I'd probably get more for the components that are Campagnolo if I sell them to those looking for vintage parts. Maybe not, but even if they sit on the shelf for me to look and admire the almost artistic beauty of their day at that's okay, I'm not concerned about the relatively few dollars I have and will put into this bike.

So yeah, the project is just to add to my riding enjoyment. It is a nice riding bike and very sporty handling, but the 7 speed rear, which was an upgrade I did after I bought it just doesn't do it for the way I ride now. When it did serve me well it got me back into good physical shape at a time I really needed it. I'm thinking it will build out as a better riding bike and maybe ever so slightly lighter with the 105 5800 drive train, shifters and brakes than my 91 Paramount with OS tubing did. The intention is to have it's gearing set up for the hillier routes I do and the Paramount set up more for the flatter routes.

Without going out to the garage to look again, I believe just about everything was clamp on. Except for the cable stop on the rear chain stay which is on the top, unlike my Schwinn which is on the bottom. The cable guide for the shifter cables is clamp on and routes over the BB and that was the only thing I intended to leave as is. Unless there is an overriding reason to move the cables below, such as they don't allow proper pull angle for the front DR or simply have more cable friction than I imagine. But I think I can machine some little pieces of Delrin to fit in them to make them more friction free. I made a cable guide out of Delrin for my Paramount recently and it's holding up nicely so far.

Not certain exactly what you are getting at about removing the hangar. It's part of the drop out and the DR bolts directly to it as it does on my Paramount. And am I to understand that I can find some braze on stops with adjusters for the downtube? As I mentioned previously a recent quick search didn't turn up any sources. All I could come up with was braze on bosses for down tube levers and then I'd have to get the conversion cable stops that Shimano makes as I did for my Schwinn. Not a big deal, but doesn't seem as clean a solution in view of the extent to which I'm going.

You got me worried about the brakes, but the 105 5800 brakes I bought for this project are the same models as I used on the Paramount. And unless I missed something the way the frames mountings are made for them are the same. But admittedly all I did was eyeball the reach and other measurements when I had the bikes next to each other.

Rack mounts?

I consider myself a fairly decent painter with a spray gun. DIY stuff only. No professional experience though I've helped a professional aircraft mechanic paint a few planes. So yes I plan to get a smooth coat. As well, the period correct decals will be put on then a good coat of clear over everything.

79pmooney

I've got a '73 Competition. Brazing was very poor so I had a framebuilder get it stripped then he: brazed all the lugs. They drank in the braze like they'd never seen it before. (Two tubes were cracked at the lugs, quite obviously from lack of support from that braze.) Seatpin got I presume the treatment Andrew suggested. Looks and acts brand new. The Huret dropout modified to be compatible with Japanese derailleurs. Two or three WBs of bosses (I'd have to look, I hope three),

I don't like shifter bosses on horizontal dropout bikes. If I ever go SS or fixed, they suck. (I also don't know if they work with SunTour Power shifters, which rock!) I picked up a sweet Shimano clamp on old school cable guide, brand new so I don't miss not having the guides.

My big concern was structural. The bike is a blast to bomb down gravel but I flat out didn't trust it to stay in one piece on the wild washboard at the bottoms (after seeing a huge gap - no braze - under the shifter stop. If no braze there, is there braze elsewhere? The builder reported to me that the bike was held together by the paint. I feel absolutely zero obligation to honor Raleigh with correct decals (paid for out of my pocket after I paid a framebuilder twice the original price of the entire bike to do what was supposed to be done at the factory. It is just powercoated black. I have the 1973 Reynolds stickers but haven't put them on to not advertise to thieves..

Ben

busdriver1959

Andrew R Stewart 

My reference of a hanger is for the rear brake cable stop. All the Raleigh Comps out of England (the name was carried into the early Asian sourcing for the US market around 1982 or so). They had a loop of small diameter rod with an adjuster hole for the cable to go through.

There are a few DT stops with adjusters out there although I make my own. Why? because I can.

I'm a kitchen sinker so I like extra room beyond a wedge pack and jersey pockets.

Ben- I have seen and owned Raleighs with really poor brazing penetration. A few had the brass only along the shoreline! But Raleigh was well known for this back then. We called them the Friday afternoon production after the 4 pint lunches To the cracked tubes- I strongly doubt a lack of brazing caused a tube crack. If anything that the tube saw enough stress to fatigue and crack suggests that the brazing was enough (although still not fully flowed into the root of the joint) to transmit this stress into the tube. Instead I offer that what you experienced was an over heated tube which turned brittle. The heat from brazing is focused at the lug so a failure at the lug's edge is completely understandable if cooked. Raleigh of England used a pickling bath to "finish" the frame prior to painting. I have had more experienced builders and Raleigh reps mention that this bath will eat away poor brazing. The reps also added that the time spent in said bath was a factor. Tube embrittlement is also well known, any chrome near the cracks? Chroming adds it's issues too. BTW I hope the cracked tubes were somehow reinforced or replaced and not just rebrazed Andy

Iride01 

It came with sidepull brakes, so there is no hangar for the rear brake cable. You threw me with "rack mounts" but I see now they are the eyelets that fender stays and/or a luggage carrier stays bolt to. Of which there are already a set on the rear drops and fork ends.

Y'all have me wondering about the threading on the rear DR mount, but no time to check right now. It is part of the rear dropout whether it's brazed on or not I can't tell. The current DR's are the originally installed Campy Gran Sport. Since the BB shell and the freewheel I upgraded were what I consider normal and common spec, I hadn't been worried till it was mentioned.

The cable routing above stay for the rear DR as it currently is, seems to make more sense to me. It looks like it allows a wider arc for the cable housing going to the DR. My Paramount's routing below the stay puts it in a tighter arc that seems cramped and unnatural, but I don't know that it's causing any more effort to pull cable. At least none that is an issue shifting at this time.

Found a site advertising threaded cable stop bosses. However they mention something about detents for STI's. I'm not sure I quite understand their statement. I've got to puzzel on that some and see how they do that on the Shimano adjusters that go over the downtube levers on my other bike. Maybe then I'll understand. I thought, the detents were more to let you feel that you were actually turning the screw than to keep it from changing adjustment.

I was told it's a 78 Raleigh Competition G.S. The bottom of the BB shell was very heavy with rust and the serial number was not distinguishable at the time. Raleigh England then used those stamps with large numbers and letters. I've never been able to use them and have them leave a significant impression in metal and apparently Raleigh's bike builders at that time couldn't either. I'm hoping that when I clean it up I can make it out, though I may have waited too long. I used to be able to see a little bit of them buy now nothing shows. Just for my own interest I'd like to know as the original components match pretty much exactly what the 1978 and 1979 catalogs show.

The lugs and all seem well brazed to me. No excess and no voids, though that may be the black paint they liked to put outlining them on the silver frames. I don't plan to outline them, though the lugs do have some simple artistry and flourishes incorporated into them. As for whats his names lugs drinking braze like never before..... can't that also be a sign of poor technique on the person brazing them? Won't capillary action keep sucking up braze/solder sending all the excess down the inside of the tubes unseen if the entire lug and end of tube is at or over temp?

I certainly appreciate everyone's replies, they've gotten me to realize some other things I haven't thought about ordering and also caused me to do some research into dropouts and things of that period.

unterhausen

shift lever bosses can be converted to stops, but not the other way around.

Henry James appears to sell Paragon parts, I think that link goes to a CS 2019 Steel Downtube Cable Stop, 3/8" OD, 1-3/8" Miter CS2019

It's well worth looking through the Paragon site.

fietsbob

I have Bar end shifting on my road bike*, so I'd say; cable housing stops..

(I put housing stop covers over my shifter bosses)

* +2 touring , & Cross ..

if you go index then an adjuster stop would be better .. threaded..

Andrew R Stewart 

I wish my memory was better but I thought that the English made Comps were still in the line up in the late 1970s. Having done a bit of google work I see that I am wrong in the spec for 1978. Still do your homework as you can see we out here are not perfect Andy

Iride01 

Too much thinking started me wondering about changing out the rear dropouts for vertical dropouts. However that is probably well over my pay-grade and expertise. Though making a fixture to hold everything in alignment seems an easy task. But I suppose I'd wind up having to detach the back stays from the seat tube and matching the angle of the new dropout. Way to much for what my intentions are. Besides the stays and fork are nicely chromed on the ends and in decent enough condition to survive casual viewing by others. Though there is a plater nearby........

It's probably best to just stick to adding the bottle bosses, cable stops and guides. I've got 1018 and 4140 drops laying around and could make my own, but the price and time savings ordering them makes more sense. Though I know my threads would look a lot better than the examples in the pics.

As for the history, I think there were plenty of English made Competition G.S.'s being sold in the US at the time, though 1978 to 1982 seems to be a fairly mixed up period for people trying to chronicle what bikes sold here in the US where made by whom in the Raleigh England, Raleigh USA with both getting some production from Japan frame builders. But I think it's fair to say that if it says made in England on the decals, then it's made in England, as does mine. Same for those that say made in USA. For those that don't say anything it might be made in Japan. Though some did state Japan made. I'd guess that as far as the US market then, that Raleigh USA in the first few of it's years concentrated on getting the higher volume production done which will have been the cheaper bikes. The higher end bikes likely did mostly come from England as imports though I think I have seen some pictures of frames bearing the Raleigh USA badge that are claimed to be 79 and 80 year models of Competition G.S. and higher end Raleigh's. I suppose maybe Raleigh USA did produce some of the high end models as production of the low end models allowed and simply imported Raleigh England bikes to fill the demand for which their production rates couldn't handle.

Certainly be a better topic in the C&V forum, but like the A&S forum, the unbending "my way is the only way" purists and ideologists that appear in there at times, makes staying out of those forums necessary for me as I might spout something hastily that I shouldn't.

Nope, I shouldn't say that anywhere. so I strike it out and it's as good as not saying it right? <grin>

TiHabanero

I'm looking at a silver 82 Comp GS right now. It has Suntour Superbe calipers on it with the pads set at the top of the slot on the front and mid slot in the rear. Should be able to use a wide range of mid reach calipers on yours as the Suntour Superbe calipers I have on the bike have a range of 47- 57mm (just measured it). The Japanese models had better craftsmanship than the Carlton bikes, but my boss told me to get the Carlton as it will be much more desirable when the time comes. He was correct.
Braze away and add the H2O bosses. I prefer in-line adjusters for STI and recommend using non-threaded stops and in-line adjusters. Besides it looks cleaner. If you pull the drop outs, let me know and I will give you my address so they can be reused by me! Those babies have some long slots and look fantastic.

rhm

@gugie might want to comment on this! I had him modify a frame for me a couple years ago (full story here: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...nk-canvas.html).

For those who don't want to read that thread, the bike in question was a Holdsworth from the mid 70's, that had been modified previously. At some point someone had added a lot of things, some of them a little odd (two water bottles on the down tube is not a great idea). It has the old fashioned "diving helmet" cable stops, rather than shifter bosses. I rather wish I had had Gugie replace the cable stops with shifter bosses, because as Unterhausen mentioned, it's easy to convert shifter bosses to cable stops but not the other way around.

It turns out I like to use a bar end shifter for the rear derailleur, and a down tube shifter (on the right side of the tube) for the front. This lets me do all my shifting with my right hand. I realize I'm a minority of one on this, but that's beside the point. It's not a big deal; I have a clamped on shifter that works fine. But shifter bosses would be preferable.

unterhausen

I almost always shifted my front derailleur with my right hand when I had DT shifters. I still reach down for the DT shifters occasionally until I catch myself. I'm going to put DT bosses on the next couple of frames I build and get some of the Campagnolo bolt-on stops. I don't really like most of the braze-on stops available.

I think I might put DT shifters on my SnS travel bike. Seems like it would be a good way to detach the housing from the bike.

gugie 

+1 +1 and +1 Seat stay top plates with "cracks" can be fixed by using a hack saw blade down the crack to clean out the rust and get down to fresh metal, then silver it in.

framebuilder.com here in Portland has good prices, and they ship fast.

I've done this twice. The first time was with @rhm's frame. It was a pain in the rear to keep everything aligned. The second time was with my Grander Sportier. I hacked of the seat stays, filed off the remnants, and brazed in the verticals as if it were a first time build on a jig. I then added the seat stays, which is the usual order of assembly (at least how I was taught). Even though that added another set of stays to braze on, it was much easier than trying to keep two sets of stays and dropouts aligned. That and the crappy Raleigh seat stay cap and seat stay to seat lug connection could be redone properly.

Do the downtube shifter bosses and bolt on adjusters, unless you absolutely never want to do anything different but have brifter/bar end/etc. shifters, and don't care that the next person with this frame might want to do something different.

Andrew R Stewart 

And a couple of +1s to this. I've done a few drop out replacements too and doing both, while taking more time, was easier to match everything up then just one drop out. Andy