robertorolfo

Hmmm, I still haven't gotten my royalty check...

Yeah, I know what it's about... I started it! Any why is it silly to question the value systems of some people? Why is it silly to criticize "conspicuous consumption"? It may seem harmless enough, but is it really the type of behavior (or value system) that is healthy in modern society? The world is getting exponentially more crowded every day, and behavior that highlights any inequality in resources, and creates a sense of discomfort about scarcity, isn't a good thing. Look at the causes for most wars and other negative events in human history.

See above. If you are purchasing an item solely for the effect you hope it elicits from other people, and have zero interest in the qualities of the actual item itself, YOU are the one with issues.

At some point people need to wake up and remember that there are indeed some objective truths. There are indeed some behaviors and ideas that are not good for society as a whole. This idea that certain malign activities or philosophies should be accepted, or even encouraged, under the guise of "different opinions," is being abused.

You can spend your money however you want. No issues there. But when you engage in an activity, ANY activity, with the intention of flagrantly demonstrating some form superiority over other people, you are a jerk and a less than ideal member of society.

You do realize why I put "run of the mill" in quotes, right? Sheesh.

Anyway, finally getting back to the point at hand, I've yet to hear anyone, including the more serious riders, justify the intrinsic price of those $15K bikes (and we covered the situational value concept above). The numbers just don't add up.

Maelochs

Oi.

Look ... if you think "conspicuous consumption" is evil, great. It is an opinion. others might think it is wonderful. As far as living low-impact lifestyles ... how much electricity do your various computer-related devices absorb?

And if people buy stuff to impress others ... while others post here to impress others ... who has the "issues"? All of us. If you need to call a "jerk" anyone with a philosophy radically different from your own .... you have a huge problem.

****, robbery, murder ... no scale of "relative values" which admit these things. They are Bad. This seems to me to be universal for all thinking and feeling human beings ... though there are some people who can rob, ****, and kill without compunction, I would say they are unwell.

But buying something shiny to impress others is Not Quite on the level of **** and murder. And pretty much, unless you live off the grid in a self-built home and grow all your own food ... you are taking more than you need. You don't :"need" a bicycle at all. Most people live just fine and don't own a bike.

I would say intolerance is a pretty big issue ... like your being intolerant of anyone who spends more than you for reasons of which You don't approve.

Wanting to judge others for inconsequentials ... pretty much of a personal problem. Condemning everyone who doesn't share your values ... pretty much a personal problem as well.

You started this thread to express scorn for people who buy very expensive bikes, and to point out that only people who buy the level of bike You own are wise and sensible That's about the heart of the matter.

So ... whatever. everyone thinks he or she is "doing it right." it takes a certain quality of person to see that people doing completely other things might also be "doing it right."

If you choose to enjoy riding your bike, i hope you enjoy riding your bike.

vinfix

I waded through most of these responses and this one jumped out to me. I was a high school bike nut with an after school job in 1979. I bought an Alan Super Record with Campy Nuovo Record, tubulars, etc. for $900. That was state-of-the-art back then. Everybody thought I was crazy, that I could buy a car for that much. I kept that bike for about 25 years, so I got my money's worth. But yes, bikes have gotten disproportionately more expensive. Now $3000 will get you a full carbon, Ultegra level bike, not top of range. I think for 4K you can get a Madone 9, but if you want the 9.9 with DuraAce Di2, etc, that's over 10k.

The $3k bike will still be lighter, have wider gearing, better brakes, etc. than the 35+ year old bike. There's a point of diminishing returns beyond that, though, where you're buying more bling than performance. I can see that, I'll take a $10,000 Colnago over a Trek, thank you. But I've tried expensive bikes, and often found I liked much cheaper bikes better.

mstateglfr 

Post up a rundown of all components and costs. Pics too!

I build up every bike I have from frames(and built one of those too) so I can appreciate your approach. $2k for $700 is impressive though.

robertorolfo

Ok, you didn't seem to understand much of what I said, so let me try again.

First and foremost, I didn't start this thread to express scorn for people. I started this thread by requesting that someone explain to me how these $15 bikes are worth that much in terms of materials, man hours to produce, man hours to design... There was no talk or judgement about who buys them.

But, since you bought it up, I commented on it (and I have no idea where the stuff about a low-impact lifestyle comes from, so I don't even know how to respond to that nonsense). Nobody compared this behavior to murder, or any other serious crime, but your insistence that it is just one type of behavior, similar to all others, is misplaced. Certain behaviors are anti-social in the sense that they are detrimental to a healthy society. That is what we are talking about here.

I have no issue with someone buying an expensive bike if he/she needs every ounce of performance when racing, or if he/she genuinely derives some personal satisfaction from owning and riding a bike like that. That's fine. But, if someone is buying a bike like that expressly to ride down to the local shop or cafe, in an effort to impress others with their "conspicuous consumption", that is not the same thing. Quite a few people bought up Lamborghini's and super cars here, and the same thing applies. If you really love a car like that and will derive pleasure from driving it, go right ahead and buy one. But NYC is full of mindless fools revving the engines of their cars while putting down the street at 5mph in an effort to get some attention. That's pathetic. And don't give me nonsense about them still loving the car, because anyone who cared about their car wouldn't be revving the engine in 90 degree heat with no air flowing through the radiators. There is only one motivation for that behavior.

So, again, stop wasting everyone's time with these arguments that all forms of behavior are equal, and any judgement about said behavior is merely a matter of opinion. Actually, you undermined your own argument when you brought up serious crimes like murder, as you merely proved that there are some objectively bad behaviors in the world.

Yes, I'd like more details about that as well.

Maelochs

You have decided how people are allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor. You say you are not here to express scorn, then say Yeah, no scorn there.

Basically, you have decided that you and only you can decide how everyone else should live … and you think that is alright, which is even worse.

Mogens

355Mono

I have enjoyed this thread, with all of it's common sense, anger, judgments, and even the ANTI-DENTIST content. We've evolved into an age of infinite choices, in every area of interest. Heck, anybody check out fishing rod prices? (now that's a crazy way to spend money!) As an avid group road rider, I have to admit to drooling over the prospect of a 13 pound bike, for hill climbing. And, yes the prices of high end bikes are dizzying. When it came time to replace my 20-plus year old Trek, I began to research the seemingly endless choices available. As a family man, I worked within a reasonable budget, patiently waiting for a deal to come along. I bought a 2012 model, in 2016, after many markdowns. Got my son a reasonable leftover Fuji road bike for under grand as well. (should have gotten him a pig-iron frame to slow him down). I have no problem with folks buying the best they can afford. I don't have the time to build my bikes, though it doesn't look like rocket science. Between my music, work, family, building bikes is out. I do however work on the motor that pushes the bike. Like guitars, and dentistry, it's the hands. With bikes, it's the motor. Keep pushin' those pedals.

tagaproject6

Somebody call trekmogul

livedarklions

https://www.businessinsider.com/most...17-6?r=UK&IR=T

Hiro11

CyclingTips did a nice podcast on this topic today. Their conclusions, which I agree with:

1. Brands are selling $12K bikes because some people will pay that price. These super high-end bikes are not volume sellers, they're halo offerings designed to demonstrate the engineering prowess of the brand, move the brand up-market and make lesser models look cheaper.
2. The difference between the top end $12K model and the (still ridiculously expensive) $8K version one step down is entirely negligible. Actually, I would argue that the real world difference between the $12K bike and the $4K bike is entirely negligible, but that's me.
3. Buying super high-end bikes is about status at the group ride, nothing more.
4. Today's mid-range $3K-$4K bike is both more affordable than midrange offerings 15 years ago (when adjusted for inflation) and way better. Mid-range buyers have never had it so good.
5. Being "offended" by super expensive models is silly. Don't buy them. Job done.
6. Super high end mountain bikes are significantly cheaper than super high end road bikes despite being significantly more complicated to engineer and having lower margins. This is because road riders will pay these prices while mountain riders won't.
7. The ultimate consumers of overpriced stuff for status: triathletes.

Overall, it's all about conspicuous consumption at the high end level. It's weird because it's conspicuous consumption targeted at the extremely small number of people who will care that you're not on the regular Venge, you're on the S-Works Venge. The point was made that even with power meters, people buy the $2.5K SRM rather than the $0.8K Stages BECAUSE the SRM is more expensive and despite the fact that they are functionally the same thing. Power meter conspicuous consumption. It's really strange.

Phil_gretz

I think that automobiles have gotten ridiculous as well. High end cars. High end electric cars.

Also mansions. What makes a $45M house that much better than $4.5M house, a $450K house or a $45K house? And where is s the price/satisfaction break point? Discuss...

Metieval

Personally I love the fact that people are buying $12k 10K bicycles.

It means that I get a better quality midrange options.

Society infrastructure is awesome too.
I'd rather be poor in a rich mans world, than an equal in a world where everyone is poor.

fietsbob

OP might say the same about new McLaren prices..

jackb

The real question here is what does a well-made, high performance actually cost? I'd say anything more than a few thousand dollars is not just overkill but down right silly. I suppose if you are a diamond lover you could have an expensive diamond mounted on your stem cap, increasing the overall price of the bike accordingly. But this would be silly, yet no different from installing all kinds of high tech parts that are not really needed. But if you have the money, spend (or waste it) as you choose. This is the land of conspicuous consumption.

Maelochs

no, it means people own cheaper cars and drive them longer, which means they are more likely to need maintenance, and are more likely to be running inefficiently and wasting fuel and taking longer to stop, and running on cheap tiers which provide less grip.

Sorry to inject fact into a rant
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...es-since-1951/
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...-vehicle-sales

"Total Vehicle Sales in the United States decreased to 16.72 Million in August from 16.77 Million in July of 2018. Total Vehicle Sales in the United States averaged 15.57 Million from 1993 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 21.77 Million in October of 2001 and a record low of 9.05 Million in February of 2009."

So basically, when the economy was at its worst point since 1929 .... people still Bought Nine Million cars and light trucks in that Month. Sales of cars and light trucks have averaged about 17 million per Month since October.

Apparently, well more than half (nearly two-thirds) the vehicles sold were light trucks ... that is SUVs and pick-ups ... you know, those really efficient vehicles. Apparently the rising cost of vehicles has not limited car sales ... and Certainly hasn't impacted miles driven. The best way to impact miles driven is to raise fuel prices ... but that mainly cuts down on vacations. Commuters still need to commute, shoppers still need to shop.

Whatever.

mstateglfr 

They either keep their current car longer(if possible), or if they get a new car, it more realistically just means more financing and debt by those who can least afford to take on more debt.

My hypothetical is realistic while yours is simply pie in the sky fantasy. We live in a society which is heavily dependent on frequent transportation over 5mi. It is completely unrealistic to think(or even hope) that people suddenly stop driving because a car costs $5K more than what they want/expect it to. They will instead finance the car out to the longest period and pay the extra $75 or so per month(20K up to $25K @72 months with 3+% interest for example).

NameTaken

Cycling doesn't have to be that expensive. I've invested roughly $1100 in my bike which makes me a hobo compared to most of the people on this forum but I don't feel like the guy I see regularly on his 10k Italian billboard is getting any more enjoyment out of it than I am. In fact, the guy looks stressed every time I see him. Probably worried that everyone is going to steel his bike. The option is there for pros or for people with money to burn. It's not a buy in to be able to enjoy or benefit from cycling.

Maelochs

I used to get that a lot. people would say to me, "I see you riding that $12 K or $15 K bike and you always look so stressed out."

I 'd reply,"Yeah, every time I steal one I worry I am going to get caught."

Wilmingtech

I did not read every single post in this thread so forgive me if someone has already mentioned this -

It's considered Art. It's looked at as something original that no one else has. The more original it is in it's engineering and design, the more money it's worth. Granted the time and effort and money that went into designing it is much less than the cost but that is the same with any kind of artwork.

I've known people in my life who buy something like this because they want the best and something original. The spend is less than they make in a month, week sometimes in a day. So for them it's just a hobby and something intrinsic to collect or spend their money on. Most people in this category don't even know how much money they have, they pay someone else to keep track of that for them. But to have a piece of artwork that no one else has, that is something to behold.

And you will see this in every industry, cars, motorcycles, jewelry, houses. Wait.... did you say a Trek was 15,000.00???? What the... who in their right mind would pay 15k for a Trek???

-Sean

124Spider

When you use a word like "justify," you're already skewing your question.

Generally speaking, commercial establishments don't "justify" prices; they "establish" prices. They use their costs, the prices their competitors charge, the amount they expect the market to bear, and other factors, to determine the price at which they sell goods. If they don't sell, they disappear.

Unlike, say, milk or the EpiPen, nobody requires a high end bike. This isn't a matter of ethics or morals. If you don't want to pay $15,000 for a bike (and I certainly wouldn't want to pay $15,000 for a bike), then don't. It's pretty simple.

But if the item sells for that price, there's obviously a market. No "justification" needed.

I-Like-To-Bike

How much do you think paintings are "worth" in terms of materials, man hours to produce, man hours to design? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...sive_paintings

I suspect the oils and canvas didn't cost that much, and the man hours, especially for the Van Goghs wasn't too extensive, but the listed painting are probably worth every penny spent by the buyers to obtain them.

However if you don't want to buy any painting, or even paint your house, because of what some people pay for their painted objects, then don't.

biketampa

124Spider

Which all brings up the question, yet again, of why anybody cares what anybody else spends on a bike.

Buy what you want to ride and can afford to pay for. Ride the heck out of it, and enjoy every mile/kilometer.

But don't worry about what anybody else rides!

Mark

Tape2012

I'm sure it was. I wasn't criticizing, just appreciating the unfortunate timing of misspelling a word.