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Old 10-03-18, 06:04 AM
  #5201  
queerpunk
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Plenty of officials will let some wiggle room in, too, depending on the level of the race. I was holding a rider for a keirin, and on the start, her wheel pulled - those damn Cane Creeks. As I was fixing it, the official said, "This isn't a recognized mishap, but you flew here to race, so we'll allow it."
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Old 10-03-18, 04:31 PM
  #5202  
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Originally Posted by southernfox
...usually they'll allow one restart for something like slipping down the track early in a match sprint, but they make you rider 1 (even if you were rider 2). That is in the rule book. A second time is a relegation.

FWIW, one of the men's team sprint teams had a pulled pedal...got a restart...had a second pulled pedal = DQ.
That is consistent with my understanding of the rule book, and Tobukog's.
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Old 10-03-18, 05:01 PM
  #5203  
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Guess I was more unlucky than some of you. At the last canadian nationals in milton during the pursuit qualifier. I had the threads on my hubs for the 13T cog explode on the standing start. Everything was properly installed beforehand. Luckily my race wheels have a flip/flip design so I had another cog (14T) installed and ready but still had to get my tools on the infield, switch the side of the wheels and change the chainring to keep a similar gearing. Got ready quickly enough that only a single heat passed between my false start and my restart.

In the end, I still got disqualified because the other rider passed me at 2km to go but bonked at 1km to go and I passed him back at the end to keep my pace. It was the last race of the weekend' so i drove back home (9hr drive from Milton ontario to quebec city) after the race and when i arrived at home saw that I was fined 50$ for not having spare at the starting area. Even if I had a spare wheel, chainring and my tools at the starting area, I would have still needed the same amount of time to fix my issue.
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Old 10-03-18, 05:33 PM
  #5204  
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Originally Posted by rensho3
That is consistent with my understanding of the rule book, and Tobukog's.
But they're not giving you a re-ride in a match sprint for a pulled pedal, which is what I think you suggested. The UCI head official wanted to make very sure I understood the distinction.
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Old 10-03-18, 05:35 PM
  #5205  
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Originally Posted by Godsight
Guess I was more unlucky than some of you. At the last canadian nationals in milton during the pursuit qualifier. I had the threads on my hubs for the 13T cog explode on the standing start. Everything was properly installed beforehand. Luckily my race wheels have a flip/flip design so I had another cog (14T) installed and ready but still had to get my tools on the infield, switch the side of the wheels and change the chainring to keep a similar gearing. Got ready quickly enough that only a single heat passed between my false start and my restart.

In the end, I still got disqualified because the other rider passed me at 2km to go but bonked at 1km to go and I passed him back at the end to keep my pace. It was the last race of the weekend' so i drove back home (9hr drive from Milton ontario to quebec city) after the race and when i arrived at home saw that I was fined 50$ for not having spare at the starting area. Even if I had a spare wheel, chainring and my tools at the starting area, I would have still needed the same amount of time to fix my issue.
They should put you at the end of the heats for your re-ride: you didn't have to rush.

But yes, it's against the rules to re-pass someone who passes you in a TT.

The fine is what's shocking to me...wtf.
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Old 10-03-18, 05:37 PM
  #5206  
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Originally Posted by southernfox
They should put you at the end of the heats for your re-ride: you didn't have to rush.

But yes, it's against the rules to re-pass someone who passes you in a TT.

The fine is what's shocking to me...wtf.
The commissaries were the one rushing me to restart asap.
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Old 10-03-18, 10:40 PM
  #5207  
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Originally Posted by tobukog
As far as I can remember, you can get a reride for a legitimate mishap. Did the refs mention a change in UCI rules?
In every sprint tourney I’ve raced, mishaps in the first lap get a reride, but any time after that and it’s better luck next time
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Old 10-04-18, 04:12 AM
  #5208  
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Originally Posted by Godsight
The commissaries were the one rushing me to restart asap.
SUPER weird. They're supposed to put you at the end (and every UCI event I've done that's what they've done, including Nats last week). ...weird! That sucks.
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Old 10-04-18, 04:13 AM
  #5209  
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Originally Posted by brawlo


In every sprint tourney I’ve raced, mishaps in the first lap get a reride, but any time after that and it’s better luck next time
A UCI event, though? Local stuff does that all the time, because they want people to enjoy racing and get some value.
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Old 10-04-18, 09:57 AM
  #5210  
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Originally Posted by southernfox
A UCI event, though? Local stuff does that all the time, because they want people to enjoy racing and get some value.

It's in the UCI rules.

Race stoppages
3.2.048 The race may be stopped only:

1. in the case of fall. If the fall be intentionally caused by a competitor, that competitor shall be relegated or disqualified from the tournament according to the gravity of the fault committed and the other competitor declared the winner. In three or four-up heats, the race shall be immediately restarted with the remaining two or three riders. Should the fall have been caused by a competitor riding too slowly in a curve or by any other unintentional fault, the race shall be restarted and the offending rider shall take the inside of the track.
If the fall is not caused by a competitor committing a fault, commissaires shall decide whether the race is to be restarted with the riders in the same order or whether the positions at the time of the fall should be considered final.
2. in the case of a puncture.
3. in the case of the breakage of an essential part of the bicycle. In all of these three cases, the commissaires shall decide whether the race is to be restarted with the riders in the same order or whether the positions at the time of the incident should be considered final.
4. in the following cases: a) If a rider loses his balance, falls or touches an opponent or the barrier, the race shall be restarted and the rider in question shall take the inside of the track. b) If the starter observes a flagrant infringement and stops the race before the bell rings to indicate the start of the last lap, the commissaires may relegate or disqualify the rider committing the infringement. The other rider shall be declared the winner or in the case of a three or four-up race, it shall be restarted as a two or three-up race. (text modified on 1.01.02) 3.2.049
If the rider committing the infringement is not relegated or disqualified, the race shall be restarted and that rider shall take the inside of the track. (text modified on 1.01.02)

Last edited by taras0000; 10-04-18 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 10-04-18, 12:54 PM
  #5211  
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Originally Posted by taras0000
It's in the UCI rules.

Race stoppages
3.2.048 The race may be stopped only:

1. in the case of fall. If the fall be intentionally caused by a competitor, that competitor shall be relegated or disqualified from the tournament according to the gravity of the fault committed and the other competitor declared the winner. In three or four-up heats, the race shall be immediately restarted with the remaining two or three riders. Should the fall have been caused by a competitor riding too slowly in a curve or by any other unintentional fault, the race shall be restarted and the offending rider shall take the inside of the track.
If the fall is not caused by a competitor committing a fault, commissaires shall decide whether the race is to be restarted with the riders in the same order or whether the positions at the time of the fall should be considered final.
2. in the case of a puncture.
3. in the case of the breakage of an essential part of the bicycle. In all of these three cases, the commissaires shall decide whether the race is to be restarted with the riders in the same order or whether the positions at the time of the incident should be considered final.
4. in the following cases: a) If a rider loses his balance, falls or touches an opponent or the barrier, the race shall be restarted and the rider in question shall take the inside of the track. b) If the starter observes a flagrant infringement and stops the race before the bell rings to indicate the start of the last lap, the commissaires may relegate or disqualify the rider committing the infringement. The other rider shall be declared the winner or in the case of a three or four-up race, it shall be restarted as a two or three-up race. (text modified on 1.01.02) 3.2.049
If the rider committing the infringement is not relegated or disqualified, the race shall be restarted and that rider shall take the inside of the track. (text modified on 1.01.02)
I'm talking about for pulling a pedal. I was very explicitly told by the official that one would NOT get a re-ride for a pulled pedal in a mass start event, including match sprint. That's what we're talking about. Pulled pedals.
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Old 10-04-18, 03:14 PM
  #5212  
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Oh I know what we're talking about and can follow along just fine without having it spelled out for me. All anyone has mentioned is that you get a re-ride for a legitimate mishap. A mishap was defined earlier. Read up on that so you're not misinterpreting what people have written. No one had written that you get a re-ride for a pulled pedal in a mass start or sprint race, only for a mishap. The only time a pulled pedal is considered a legitimate mishap is if something physically breaks within the pedal and it can be proved that it wasn't due to lack of maintenance. That was sorted out way back. If an event is being run under UCI sanction or rules, then the UCI rulebook applies. If the event is not UCI sanctioned, and not running under UCI rules, then another set of rules will apply. Simple as that. Any debate beyond that is simple mental masturbati*n .

I posted that rule for anyone who wanted to know the full rule on the subject when it comes to Match Sprints. Coupled with Carleton's posting above, that's all you need to determine that pulling out of your pedal doesn't get you a re-ride.

Last edited by taras0000; 10-05-18 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 10-04-18, 03:37 PM
  #5213  
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Originally Posted by southernfox
A UCI event, though? Local stuff does that all the time, because they want people to enjoy racing and get some value.
The Cycling Australia rule book is based on the UCI rule book so for us it doesn’t matter. @taras0000 has posted the relevant ruling.

Originally Posted by southernfox
I'm talking about for pulling a pedal. I was very explicitly told by the official that one would NOT get a re-ride for a pulled pedal in a mass start event, including match sprint. That's what we're talking about. Pulled pedals.
If the pulled pedal causes you to fall then technically that would get you your reride. I guess this is a good theory behind the Hoy style strap connection. Maybe your straps need to be tighter or placed differently?
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Old 10-04-18, 05:50 PM
  #5214  
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My straps are all that kept my foot in...
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Old 10-04-18, 06:26 PM
  #5215  
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Originally Posted by southernfox
My straps are all that kept my foot in...
1) If strapped properly and snugly, you would not be able to disengage from the pedal clip.

2) Stop using Nylon straps. BLS straps are booty. They just have a really good marketing and distribution campaign.

3) Nylon+Velcro straps in general are not superior to NJS style straps. Period. Nylon stretches. NJS straps do not. Period.

If you are concerned about pulling out, then install NJS straps behind the axle. On that note, any part of the strap that is in front of the axle does absolutely nothing to keep you in the back of the pedal.

If Hoy can ride with a single NJS strap and conquer the world...so can we

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Old 10-04-18, 06:37 PM
  #5216  
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I've tried several pedal systems that involve straps including:
- Speedplay Zeros with NJS single straps
- Speedplay Zeros with NJS double straps
- SPD-SL "Lance" pedals with NJS single straps
- SPD-SL "Lance" pedals with NJS double straps
- SPD-SL pedals with NJS single straps
- SPD-SL pedals with NJS double straps
- LOOK KEO 2 Max pedals with NJS single straps
- LOOK KEO Blade pedals with NJS single straps
- LOOK KEO Blade pedals with NJS double straps
- Shimano 600 old school slotted cleat pedals with NJS double straps
- SPD-SL pedals with nylon Hold Fast straps
- SPD-SL pedals with custom nylon velcro straps made by a bag maker
- SPD-SL pedals with nylon BLS straps
- about 10 prototypes of nylon-style straps (not of nylon but other top ($$$) materials) that I made myself.

...and I went back to Shimano SPD-SL pedals with NJS double straps behind the axle.


This is the most secure way without having to have that piece that Hoy and Baranoski had made.

Southern Fox, I'll go as far to say that I make more torque than you and if they can keep me in, they can keep you in. If you want to compare torque numbers from power files, I'm in

For everyone reading, ditch nylon straps. They stretch. Period. And you can't cinch them down like you can NJS straps. The are not "more aerodynamic".

Last edited by carleton; 10-04-18 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 10-04-18, 06:39 PM
  #5217  
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Note that NJS straps are...

Made in Japan by Fujitoshi from two layers of strong, comfortable suede leather with stretch-proof laminate in the middle and heavy-duty, dual-riveted chromed steel buckles.
They aren't just "leather straps". Basic leather straps will stretch like a belt. NJS straps have been perfected. The buckle is an engineering marvel.
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Old 10-04-18, 06:49 PM
  #5218  
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Not trying to rip on BLS, but the through-the-axle design of their straps is straight phoning it in. Mark my words, BLS straps are a fad. They simply look nice...and stretch. The fact that top riders still use them blows my mind.

It's awful. There are fixie pedal straps that are better at the job.

1/2 of the nylon is in front of the axle. Why is this bad? The whole purpose of pedal straps on SPD-SL / LOOK style pedals is to keep the spring-loaded clamp from opening up. That's about 5cm away from the axle. 6cm away from the webbing in front of the axle.

The best designs are like that which Hoy used. Matt Baranoski's dad (an engineer, BTW) made a similar device for Matt. Next would be to affix straps behind the axle that come over the foot above the clamp.

Any part of the strap that is in front of the axle simply works to keep your toes down. No one has a problem with their toes unclipping first
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Old 10-05-18, 05:28 AM
  #5219  
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My very "Hoy-style" set up. I love it. I don't think it's possible to unclip unless something major breaks.

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Old 10-05-18, 05:56 AM
  #5220  
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I've got the BLS straps. The pedal axle version works well with my Speedplay pedals, which do not have a good way for attaching straps. But they are not quality straps. I've had them less than a year and do not use them all the time, but they are showing significant signs of wear, to the point that I could see them snapping soon.

I'm not sure what my next plan will be. I could certainly buy something like the Cruz Components adapter for my Speedplays to run different straps, but that adds a few more mm below my pedals, and with my 170 cranks, I already experience pedal rub on 250 tracks when going at a moderate pace.

I'd prefer not to switch to another pedal system, but I may have to.

(Also, BP, I ordered a pair of those Lakes, but in black with white stripes. Not sure when they'll be here - my LBS says Lakes are slow to get in, but my season is over, so no rush.)
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Old 10-05-18, 06:23 AM
  #5221  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
(Also, BP, I ordered a pair of those Lakes, but in black with white stripes. Not sure when they'll be here - my LBS says Lakes are slow to get in, but my season is over, so no rush.)
I REALLY like them, and if you have wide feet like me, they'll be a revelation.
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Old 10-05-18, 06:41 AM
  #5222  
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Thanks. I'll look into that.

I think the BLS I have are too far forward (they're not the axle ones)

Last edited by southernfox; 10-05-18 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 10-05-18, 08:33 AM
  #5223  
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Old 10-05-18, 09:36 AM
  #5224  
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I suppose if people are super paranoid about pulling out, they could go back to the first clipless pedals ever made (Cinelli?) that required you to be screwed into the pedal. Part of the reason for pulling out isn't just about power: I think some riders just have a starting pedaling action that tends to clip out more easily than others. Historically, I think many find riders find Shimano pedals SPD SL and SPD R to be more secure -- it's not just the spring tension but something about the cleat design and how it interfaces with the pedal that makes it more difficult to accidentally unclip. Add in a Hoy type retention system as shown in Carleton's pic and you've got a really good system for standing starts. The Modern Look system seems similar to Shimano, but it just doesn't work as well for standing starts.

I think any first year track rider learns that pulling out on a pedal isn't a legitimate mishap -- it's considered within the category of "rider error equipment malfunction". Pretty similar to dropping a chain in a criterium or rolling a tire. Now I've seen riders finagle a free lap by claiming, "I struck a pedal and the tire rolled when the bike came back down..." but that's pushing the envelope of the definition of an equipment malfunction.
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Old 10-05-18, 09:57 AM
  #5225  
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I think part of the problem with modern straps is that they are too far forward, as mentioned by SF, but also, that they are only engaging the bottom of the pedal, and not the actual clasp like the hoy/baranosky/VP design.

In the past, with the SPD-r system, riders used to take the loop tang trom toe clips, cut them down, drill a hole and mount them to the clasp using the tensioning screw. That pulls the clasp up and forward, as does the hoy/baranosky/VP system. Ay e something machined or printed to hold the strap, that uses a new/longer retention screw is what's needed.

I goofed on the bottom drawing. There are supposed to be 4 legs on it to accomodate curves n the design of the pedal clasp.

Last edited by taras0000; 10-05-18 at 02:36 PM.
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