J_Climacus 

Self explanatory title. I have a honey saddle that says "brooks professional" on the side. I'm looking for another one in black or dark brown, but when I look online, I see some that are called "team professional" and some that are just called "professional." Brooks only has one on their site - the "Team Pro Special" (I'm thinking special means copper rivets but I'm.not sure about that either).

The model has changed enough in subtle ways over the years that a Google search is confusing. So, does anyone know: is the "Team Pro" the same as the "Pro"?

(P.s. if you have a NOS or very good condition brooks pro that you're trying to sell, lmk before I buy direct from brooks. New one will cost me $153).

Pcampeau

The Team Pro has the larger rivets. The special has copper rails as well as larger rivets. The regular Pro with smaller rivets is no longer made. They are otherwise the same saddle with minor differences over the years depending on the saddles vintage.

J_Climacus 

Thank you. Extremely helpful. Also really glad you mentioned the copper rails, because my current pro has those and I specifically do *not* want that.

repechage

Not the team pro I sold before the pandemic. Thicker leather, like 1mm or more, black, black chassis. Hard as a rock and In demand.
‘Used an Allen key nose bolt.

was Pro Select embossed on the sides

merziac

You may be able to scrub/polish some of the copper off with rubbing compound, Bar Keepers Friend or Comet and Scotch Brite, maybe get it down to silver or dull/lighten the copper, then shine it back up, maybe.

Road Fan

I think the year of the saddle has a lot to do with the actual ornamentation.

Road Fan

As far as the leather, I finally found a few Brooks Professional Selects marked 1979. The leather thickness is in the range of 5 mm, but it is different at different edges. This makes sense, it would be a way of making the saddle flex where you want it too, at least by design. My two examples both have large copper rivets, but one has much softer and supple leather than the other. The stiff one came to me rock hard, and after sitting for a while with some older Proofide (the one with tallow) on the top, there is a little give when I press the sit bone areas, but that one is still too hard to ride, at least with my old butt. I'm considering trying the Lon Haldeman Pac-Tour process on it, but haven't done so yet.

In any case, the leather of a Professional Select is thicker and stiffer than that of a Professional or a Team Professional. However, comparing individual examples of these saddles while just browsing through used racing bikes or saddles offered for sale, the apparent suppleness seems to vary quite a lot among what's available out there. So, Selects are no longer made, and if one wants to try the older, thicker leather of a Select, you have to look hard. Consider, the ones I have are marked 1979, and I found them used - you pays your money and you takes your chances!

TiHabanero

Boiling the saddle does work. Back in 1982 or maybe it was 83, Susan, Lons girlfriend (now wife) lived nearby and showed my brother Lon's saddle break-in method. He used it on a Brooks Pro large rivet from 1979 at that time and it worked. Now I have the saddle on my brother's bike and get out once a year for a ride on it. Still a great saddle!

ascherer 

I bought a Team Pro Select in the early 80s and rode it for a upwards of 15 years, it never got the slightest bit broken in. Finally swapped it with a forum member for 2 B17s. Each of us thought we got a great deal!

1989Pre 

I have a Team Pro S from 1991. It has the copper rivets (large) and copper rails, but I was under the impression that "S" meant short (254mm length) rather than Special. It's definitely a shorter-style. This one has no bag loops.

ollo_ollo

One of those Team Pro "S" saddles was on a bike I bought. Guy selling said it was the best fit ever for him. (should have asked why not keep it then?) It was in near new condition, unmarked.
Fairly hard. Quickly found it too short for my small butt. Sett it aside & eventually threw it in to get full ask for a TREK I sold.. Don

Bad Lag

After 50 years my Brooks Pro is broken in without breaking down.

steelbikeguy

This thread is shockingly devoid of photos!

Fortunately, I can fix that!

The Pro used to be the standard. I bought on back in the 70's, and still have it on my Raleigh International. The rivets are approximately 5mm in diameter.



The Pro that came on the International had the same date code as my old one.. B73, I think. Here's a shot of the skirt on that one, since it has not been ridden.
My old Pro has had the embossing rubbed smooth.


The first Team Pro's were originally offered on the top level Raleighs, and probably to the actual teams sponsored by Raleigh.
The 1976 Raleigh catalog shows it on the Pro and the Team Pro....




I've got a "pre-softened" Team Pro on my Hetchins.... and I can't tell what the pre-softening has done for the saddle, but the rivets appear to be as large as the original Team Pro's. The rivets on my saddle measure 7mm in diameter.


I've also got a Swift with the large rivets, as well as a version of the B.17.

Steve in Peoria

Pcampeau

The version with the S on it is shorter but if it has large copper rivets and copper rails it’s still a “Special”.

Massimiliano

Would this work with a newer B17 that has black rails? I would prefer silver color.

merziac

Maybe, best you would get might be bare metal which could be ok but would probably be susceptible to rust.

It will be challenging to do, plenty of elbow grease and the leather can't be exposed to any chemicals so going to be hard to get after the rails and not also damage it in the process of scrubbing.

Proceed with extreme caution if you attempt this, the results may not be worth it and the rails will need to be treated somehow, maybe linseed oil or Boeshield, the cantle plate will be really hard to strip.

Maybe do a test where its easy to get to and see how it goes. I only have 1 newer one like this and have not tried it yet but will get to it soon now that we have talked about it.

steelbikeguy

I'm with @merziac... there's no chrome hiding under that black paint... just raw steel. If you take the black paint off, you'll have to put some other paint over it.
Might as well just put the new paint over the black paint.

Steve in Peoria

rhm

Uh, maybe...

But maybe not. It depends how Brooks chrome plating is done. Chrome plating is a complicated process that involves putting at least one other metal between the steel and the chrome, often copper. The steel is plated with copper, the copper is polished to a nice smooth sheen, and then a very thin layer of chrome is put over the copper. So the 'copper' frame Pro has the same frame, but they skipped the last step. Alternatively, sometimes chrome is plated over nickel. How does Brooks do it? Dunno! (the way they did it probably changed over the years... but I speculate).

Anyway, if the copper was put directly over steel, I wouldn't recommend scrubbing it off. Steel rusts.

ollo_ollo

Here's a pic of that Brooks Professional "S" I referenced in post #11. It was pretty short. Don

1989Pre 

repechage

I have a “honey”? Brooks Pro, pre softened with large rivets and copper appearing plated frame. I am not sure the plating order. The copper is deteriorating. I have to investigate, might be a tinted lacquer even?
purchased used at a reasonable price as it is as close as I will spend to have the bike appear as original from 1972 with an Idealé 90.
I could order a new one but I purchased this bike for less than half the cost of a current production saddle. Perfection will have to wait.

merziac

Fully agree on all points and understand, really just speculating on my own based on screwing up and around on many things often successful and sometimes not.

I have a black painted one that I am going to strip and see how it goes, can't turn out any uglier than the black that it already is.

Raw steel of any sort will be welcome, if it can be made silver at all would be a huge plus, cosmoline or Boeshield should keep the rust at bay well enough as this would never be subjected to moisture or rain.

I have managed to fix many a nasty part or at least improve its looks if only temporarily, bikes, mc's, cars, etc.

Often really nothing to lose if it is bad off, that's how I view these, ugly as sin with the black, they were one of the best values in cycling with the chrome rails, now blech, black paint.

rhm

Which is why it's important to save the chromed frames of trashed saddles and find someone to put new leather on them.

seedsbelize2

I am happy to read this. I have given up on breaking mine in, with far fewer miles than that! I also had a Colt at one time, that I moved along fir the same reason. That Colt had some thick leather.

Bad Lag

The to plate chrome, as far as I know, is to put a nickel flash first (~50 microinches). Nickel sticks really well to anything and everything.

Then plate some copper (~200 microinches), but thickness is determined by the user application. This is the layer that gets polished and whose surface determines the finished appearance.

Then plate some chrome, usually very thin (100 microinches) when used for cosmetics but thicker if used for wear resistance (1 or 2 mils).

I have no idea what Brooks specifies.