GeorgeBMac

You may be right - you may be wrong. There is really no way to tell if what the caveman ate helped him live a long healthy life or not...

But, even if you are right -- the nutritional problems of the caveman were not the nutritional problems we face today:
Today the problems mostly deal with chronic diseases that occur in later life. The cave man imply didn't have a later life.
... the evolutionary argument -- even if true is simply not relevant.

Frankly, I don't care if my system adapted to let me eat insects -- I prefer to get protein from plant sources.
And, even if it adapted to let me digest red meat -- with my family history or heart disease it would be foolish for me to indulge in a BigMac.

Because you CAN is not a persuasive argument that you SHOULD.

GeorgeBMac

And let me add: people WALKED! In the inner city and immediate area every street had side walks and houses were built very narrow in front because people walked to where they were going. Today, in the suburbs its dangerous to walk...

And, people had to first raise the pig, then kill it and butcher it before they ate it. It slowed down the process and they probably thought about eating that second or third pork chop...

And, even as late as the 50's and 60's, most men worked with their bodies in factories and such to earn a living. They didn't sit down. And, although women did not work in the same setting they not only worked more physically in the home -- but they also were taught that they had to stay slim to be attractive -- so many lived on a perpetual diet...

cvskates

So if we assume that this notion is valid, why doesn't this same pressure today have the same results?

Edit: Sorry, what I meant to say was: That is literally the most ignorant thing I have ever read on bikeforums.

GeorgeBMac

Sorry if you find that offensive.

But if you had lived during 50's and 60's you would know that women were under intense pressure to stay thin and attractive. There were other things that happened back then that were equally as offensive but accepted norms of American society. Things like racial discrimination - even lynchings - as well as drafting young men and sending them off to die in a rice paddy.

Perhaps you would feel better if we forgot that those things ever happened.

wolfchild

A lot of them are still under that pressure today. That's why millions of them have gym memberships and workout to stay slim, some even starve themselves and take pills to stay thin. The pressure is greater today then back in the 50's and 60's, because everywhere you look you see pics of fashion models. Many younger girls want to look like fashion models on magazine covers, but they don't realize that the pictures of those fashion models are often photoshoped and they not even 100% real. Most of those fashion models starve themselves and compromise their health to stay thin, or else they wouldn't be on the cover of the magazine. Guys are no different and a lot of them are obsessed with getting their six pack showing , thinking that a visible six pack and 20 inch biceps is the most important thing in life.

sprince

And it's not just the amount of total activity, it's also about the number of hours per day with activity and the type of activity. The number of hours per day with activity and the type of activity influences the metabolism more than the total amount of activity. And it's metabolism that largely dictates body fat, much more so than calorie intake or theoretical calories burned. There was more social pressure (there were less fat people), and more total activity required, but there was also a lot less opportunity for being inactive. And everything was somewhat more difficult than it is now. Bikes weighed a lot more, you picked up a telephone book to find a number, the telephone itself weighed several pounds instead of a few ounces, clothes were heavier, much more time and effort went into preparing meals, you carried your trash to the curb in a galvanized steel can instead of rolling a plastic container. In general people had to use their muscles a lot more, and they used them almost every hour of the waking day.

sprince

I'd argue that those unrealistic expectations is one reason why so many simply give up and end up grossly overweight.

wolfchild

Yes many of them end up overweight because of experimenting with crash diets and other fad diets.

GeorgeBMac

All true...

And I would add that Coke came in 8 oz ( or was it 10oz) bottles. And when you ordered a meal in a restaurant - which was seldom - you got one meal sized for one person - not 2 or 3.

Weatherby

The returnable bottles were actually only 6.5 oz.

GeorgeBMac

Now THAT's a novel concept: M O D E R A T I O N ! ! ! !

Our current culture has subtle ways of disparaging moderation and encouraging over-the-top excessive consumption.
... "Can I SuperSize that for you?"

lenA

except for bacon...there is no such thing as too much bacon

carnivroar

Exactly. It would be a contradiction to evolution if the food a species ate caused them to live less. Either they would eventually get wiped out or natural selection would force them to adapt to it. The H0mo genus have been around for 2 million years and the whole lineage down to us were heavy meat eaters, so clearly we are adapted to thrive primarily on meat.

I did 20 miles yesterday at an average of 15 mph on a single speed - I eat less than 50 grams of carbs per day and tons of saturated fat. The 20 miles is pretty impressive for me since I'm not an avid cyclist and have not ridden all winter.

Ate 1/4 pound of brie cheese (that's about 500 calories from fat) with dinner on two occasions last week and I noticed that I'm still getting leaner because of the increased cycling this Spring. On days when I don't do any physical activities I still overeat and don't gain weight. And this is coming from someone who used to be fat all his childhood and throughout high school.

And "moderation" doesn't mean anything because it's subjective.

ctpres

I am for the simple version also - burn more than I eat. Works for me.

Machka 

2+2

GeorgeBMac

Evolution only cares about the younger folk in their reproductive years. Once you pass that point, you become irrelevant to evolution.

But, at the same time, since todays health problems are primarily in older folk with the chronic diseases that mostly don't manifest themselves until you get older (even though they start developing far earlier), the caveman diet has little to say about "health" because -- for whatever the reason -- cavemen seldom ever lived to see even middle age...

So, as it relates to long term health, the caveman diet is simply irrelevant.

Cavemen ate whatever was available. They had few options. Today we have the option of eating a diet that promotes long tern health -- or we may choose one that promotes short term happiness... Your choice.

Moyene Corniche

Interesting Thread.... I first disagree with the premise of " DIET "... A word completely derived from a marketing standpoint of convincing people as to how they should organize their " NUTRITIONAL " intake... Diet means one is eliminating nutrients... Diets are based on achieving quick results since the general consensus is that americans do not have the attention span and patience to implement healthy lifestyle changes but more importantly practice these changes and adapt to them...

OP... From your pics, you definitely lack muscle tone. Riding a bike will shed excess baggage, but since the bike is the most efficient method of transportation we have devised, it is also quite easy to think you are " Training " when in fact your HR is well within it's aerobic comfort zone...
You say you refuse to weight train... Or resistance training as it is more correctly defined... In some instance I agree with you... Nothing turns me off more than going to a Gym.... But in off-season I have to implement a few weeks of resistance training...
( Granted, I'm returning to racing as a Cat II and my goals differ vastly from yours )
There are multiple ways to implement resistance workouts without ever entering a Gym's weight-room....
I see you live on or nearby Lake Como Italy ?? How about cross training ?? windsurfing would definitely work the upper body... Or perhaps sailing small single hand sailboats, like a J-15... Or how about rowing / Sculling.. The latter would work all your inner core muscle groups..
Tennis ?? There are multiple local clubs with clay courts to consider...

As far as changing your nutritional aspects ..... Yes !! You need to adjust that daily Bacon intake... I also love bacon, but it is an occasional treat, not a daily fix... It is high in cholesterol and not the good type.. This results in overloading your arteries which results in a less than efficient and constrained plumbing system... Which simply correlates to oxygen carrying red blood cells working harder to feed those muscles..
Less oxygen means less capability of glycogen consumption, part of the fuel equation that muscles require to function properly...
Since I'm on Nutritional Aspects, it is also about How much you consume and when....
Being in Italy I would assume it's much easier to moderate ( i grew up in France ) but regardless, that last meal of the day should leave you still hungry, feeling as if you could easily eat much more... And that should be at least 2.5 hours before bedtime....

I don't subscribe to any calorically measured nutrition program, it's basically healthy non processed organically grown food. I do every so often treat myself to Ice cream, an occasional chip or other... I do stay away from soda's... Never drink them unless I'm sick then a glass of Coke is amazing for an upset stomach... But that is rarely... Wine... ??? I'm French so I will have my glass of wine with dinner, not everyday but it's also in moderation.....

Back to working out... I saw someone posted about Intervals... ??? Why ??? It's absolutely unnecessary. Unless you are planning to race, but that is an entirely different set of parameters... Intervals should not even be practiced without a solid base of 1,500-2,000 miles of training..
( That is 1,500-2,000 miles this current season, accrued from January forward, not adding up last year's mileage...)
There is a complex methodology in Interval Training... It is part of Periodization Training, Joe Friel's Book " The Cyclist Training Bible " delves into the subject....

Crosstraining is when and where you will see the most benefit as far as not only weight loss but also muscle gain... Do be aware that as you shed excess fat reserves and build muscle tone, at some point your overall body weight loss will decrease.... Make sure you differentiate between muscle mass and fat mass.... Thinking you need to lose more weight, therefore reducing your nutritional intake, thus starving your reconstituted muscle max will result in your body cannabilizing itself... If you don't supply enough protein for muscle regeneration, then your system will adapt and take it from within.... Rehydration ( constant ) is also critical especially in Italy...

For someone who's is a casual cyclist, it's fairly simple, for those of us who race, it's always a constant awareness of not dipping over the threshold too long or too often....

( As far as my cycling background, I have raced here US and in France ( amateur ) coached Juniors, promoted a Stage Race for 5 years as well as Ski Raced ( alpine tech events ) and also coached Juniors ...... )
Good Luck with the fitness plan....

carnivroar

Can you imagine telling a tiger to eat vegetables so it can live longer? A species thrives in the diet that it evolved on.

And you're ignoring the fact that cavemen didn't live long because of the harsh environment they lived in, not because of diet.

I am also of the opinion that if you absolutely must cook/process a food in order to digest it, then you were not designed to eat it. All grains fall into this category.

Carbonfiberboy 

You should eat all the meat you can, after running it down and killing it with a stone knife. Otherwise, you might want to forage at night in gardens which other people have grown. Do that until you die. If you're not walking the walk, don't talk the talk. The rest of us live what we advise.

The Corniche is right on.

lenA

Lot easier then raising grain, making it into flour, cooking it, saving seeds for the next season, fertilizing and watering, and protecting the crop from weather, animals and insects.

therhodeo

Thats actually not true in the long term.

carnivroar

This is absolutely not true at all. It amazes me that in this day and age, people still believe that cholesterol and saturated fat are unhealthy. Quite the opposite, they are essential nutrients for good health.

Cholesterol serves as a "bandaid" for your arteries when you have inflammation (which is caused by sugar, excessive carbs, and oxidized PUFAs, among other things). Your body manufactures most of this cholesterol, anyway, so those coming from dietary sources have little impact on it. Therefore the logical thing to do is to eliminate the inflammatory foods (and no, saturated fats are not inflammatory).

Here's a guide, https://www.marksdailyapple.com/cholesterol/.

And you don't even need glycogen for cycling (which is for the most part aerobic), so you can do fine, if not better, on low-carb high-fat, if you are well adapted (which anyone can be).

Carbonfiberboy 

Please let us know when you get your Cat II upgrade.

Machka 

I hate to break it to you ... but you're not a tiger. I'm pretty sure you're a primate.

Moyene Corniche

OK .... You've convinced me that whenever you read a post, you interpret it as what you want to hear, not what is written...
I didn't get into the positive versus negative cholesterol debate.. I did however say that eating bacon everyday is not an optimal part of nutrition.... As for that link you posted... Quite amusing, i'll be sure to include it in my next team meeting.... Where you gained your info on cholesterol, it's slightly incorrect and if you believe that ingesting large amounts of cholesterol is without cause and effect than OK...
Inflammatory Foods ... ??? WUT ??? Where do you get this... ?

Glicogen..?? Tomorrow run your car's gas tank dry and see how that works within the internal combustion mode...
Glicogen is what muscles use for fuel, ( basically it is sugar for the sake of argument ) without it or for that matter the result of the process which breaks down proteins and carbohydrates and converts them to glycogen then thru an Aerobic process converts glycogen into fuel for muscles.... ( Simple very pedestrian explanation but that will suffice for this discussion... ) our bodies wouldn't move, our brains wouldn't function and we'd sooner or later resemble a long forgotten petrie dish experiment...

i would suggest that you research what nationally ranked cyclists ( or endurance athletes, the one's who are planning on competing at a world class level ) are fueling themselves with, what they do avoid, what they may on occasion and in moderation consume... You should find a nutritional plan based on optimizing glycogen utilization... While you are at it research Aerobic versus Anaerobic and what that means in terms of performance....

Sorry but most of the so called " Wonder Diet " the " Get Fit " and the " Reach Your optimal Performance Levels " plans marketed on the webs and in the publications are for the most part nonsense, albeit very lucrative business models ( if somewhat unethical ) aimed at a voluminous ( no puns intended ) sedentary population that thinks they can become world class athlete's in 6 months or less..... I WISH !!! Good Nutrition is fairly simple and fairly complex, contradictory it is but I have yet to race against a Pro 1-2 who ingested Bacon every morning, or who supplied his organism with a low carb / high fat nutritional program... That so called well adapted semi-athlete is the 1st one off the back as soon as the tempo increases... That is if that person can even exit the staging area Porta Johns...

Thank You for the link.....