Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Cold setting twice

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Cold setting twice

Old 12-03-17, 09:34 AM
  #1  
Shinkers
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 725

Bikes: '88 Trek 1200, '91 Trek 1400

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Cold setting twice

Hey,


I have a frame that was originally 126mm that I wanted to put 120mm wheels in. So I cold set it to fit. I tried using a clamp to incrementally pull the stays together but it was requiring far more movement than I was comfortable with so I ended up using brute force to get them set (squeezed between my knees at the drop outs). I did try aligning the drop outs but they didn't seem to be out by very much and no matter how much pulling I did with an adjustable wrench, they didn't seem like they wanted to go anywhere. Throughout the process I checked frame alignment with a string pulled round the head tube and it seemed to remain pretty much spot on.


So now the novelty of this wheelset has worn off, and I'm thinking it would be great if the frame was 126 again. Would this cause issues if I tried to pull the stays back? I know flexing steel back and forth can be detrimental but how many times can you get away with?


Thanks!
Shinkers is offline  
Old 12-03-17, 11:51 AM
  #2  
obrentharris 
Senior Member
 
obrentharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 2,900

Bikes: fewer (n-1)

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 766 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 417 Times in 205 Posts
I've set and reset dropout spacing on a couple different frames over the years with no obvious ill effects, in one case going from 120 to 130 and back again.
Brent
obrentharris is offline  
Old 12-03-17, 12:41 PM
  #3  
Chombi1 
Senior Member
 
Chombi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 3,130
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1115 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 130 Times in 99 Posts
Just make sure you are not trying to cold set a frame with heat treated tubes like Reynolds 753.....
Despite some people saying they have been successful in cold setting such frames, the majority who tried to do so found it impossible, as the frames just sprung right back to it's original rear spacing every time they tried to do so.
__________________
72 Line Seeker
83 Davidson Signature
84 Peugeot PSV
84 Peugeot PY10FC
84 Gitane Tour de France.
85 Vitus Plus Carbone 7
86 ALAN Record Carbonio
86 Medici Aerodynamic (Project)
88 Pinarello Montello
89 Bottecchia Professional Chorus SL
95 Trek 5500 OCLV (Project)
Chombi1 is offline  
Old 12-03-17, 02:00 PM
  #4  
ThermionicScott 
7-speed cultist
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 20,010

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2769 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times in 472 Posts
Next time you have the urge to use a 5-speed 120ish mm wheel in your 126mm-spaced bike, add a few mm of spacers on the NDS and re-dish to make up some of the difference.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 12-03-17, 07:54 PM
  #5  
Shinkers
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 725

Bikes: '88 Trek 1200, '91 Trek 1400

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Next time you have the urge to use a 5-speed 120ish mm wheel in your 126mm-spaced bike, add a few mm of spacers on the NDS and re-dish to make up some of the difference.


You know what's hilarious about this, is that I asked the builder to space these wheels to 126 originally, but they evidently forgot. I was in a hurry to get riding the bike and so just cold set the frame. In hindsight, I wish I'd have waited to few days to get some spacers.


Sounds like I'm good to go though.


Thanks guys!
Shinkers is offline  
Old 12-03-17, 09:01 PM
  #6  
bargainguy
Senior Member
 
bargainguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Trekland
Posts: 1,898
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 374 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 42 Posts
Just curious - how old is that frame? If you had to ask the builder for 126 spacing and he did 120, I'm thinking at least 35 yr. old if not more.
bargainguy is online now  
Old 12-03-17, 09:16 PM
  #7  
Shinkers
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 725

Bikes: '88 Trek 1200, '91 Trek 1400

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by bargainguy View Post
Just curious - how old is that frame? If you had to ask the builder for 126 spacing and he did 120, I'm thinking at least 35 yr. old if not more.


I meant wheel builder. The wheels are track wheels so 120mm spacing.
Shinkers is offline  
Old 12-03-17, 09:50 PM
  #8  
ThermionicScott 
7-speed cultist
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 20,010

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2769 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times in 472 Posts
Originally Posted by Shinkers View Post
I meant wheel builder. The wheels are track wheels so 120mm spacing.
Ah! In that case, a few mm of spacers on each side would be perfect. My fixed-gear is a 126mm bike with a regular 120mm "track" hub that has 3mm of spacers added behind each locknut. 8800 miles, so far so good.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 12-10-17, 10:00 PM
  #9  
Shinkers
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 725

Bikes: '88 Trek 1200, '91 Trek 1400

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Reset this frame today. Tried bracing at the brake bridge but couldn't get a clamp to stay put very well.

It was as much a workout as I remembered (doing it by hand since I don't trust myself using a 2x4). I'd have liked to hit 127 or 128 for the sake of flexibility but I stopped right at 126 because I was tired and sore.

Alignment stayed dead on it looks like. Hopefully it doesn't asplode.

Thanks all.
Shinkers is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 08:01 AM
  #10  
easyupbug 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,355

Bikes: too many sparkly Italians, some sweet Americans and a couple interesting Japanese

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 192 Post(s)
Liked 54 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
Just make sure you are not trying to cold set a frame with heat treated tubes like Reynolds 753.....
Despite some people saying they have been successful in cold setting such frames, the majority who tried to do so found it impossible, as the frames just sprung right back to it's original rear spacing every time they tried to do so.
Chombi, I had this experience with a 753r custom frame and fork. Bike would not stay on the road so I got it cheap. Using randyjawa's hang it upside technique the forks pulled left at 45, fork looked slightly twisted and string test show frame was clearly out as well.
As I had read it can't be set I tried the fork myself and indeed I could get them straight but twice as I mounted the bike they would spring back where they had been. Took the frame to Gilmour and on his Marchetti frame table and Lange fork table he got the frame perfect. I have 1,000s of miles on it and can ride around the block w/o hands.
I just don't want these nice frames get scraped out when a true craftsman can get them back on the road (in my case $80).
I have read the Reynolds engineers published warnings that cold setting can't be done on 753r. I know engineers, I are one, and we have a lot to learn for craftsmen.
easyupbug is online now  
Old 12-11-17, 07:03 PM
  #11  
Piff 
Senior Member
 
Piff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 852
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked 146 Times in 96 Posts
Originally Posted by easyupbug View Post
I know engineers, I are one, and we have a lot to learn for craftsmen.
Oh man, such a perfect engineer sentence
Piff is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 07:17 PM
  #12  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,117

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2160 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 551 Times in 387 Posts
Originally Posted by easyupbug View Post
... I are one ...
Misspelled. This is 2017. I 4 1

Ben (A retired engineer having this new language forced on me.)
79pmooney is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 08:53 PM
  #13  
CrankyFranky
Procrastinateur supreme
 
CrankyFranky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Franko barada nikto
Posts: 1,212

Bikes: Enough bikes...for today!

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
I've set and reset dropout spacing on a couple different frames over the years with no obvious ill effects, in one case going from 120 to 130 and back again.
Brent
Huh. I've had two bike shops that declined my asking them to spread my 531 from 120 to 130. Guess I have to talk to a frame builder to get a straight answer.
CrankyFranky is offline  
Old 12-12-17, 10:31 AM
  #14  
Chombi1 
Senior Member
 
Chombi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 3,130
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1115 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 130 Times in 99 Posts
Originally Posted by CrankyFranky View Post
Huh. I've had two bike shops that declined my asking them to spread my 531 from 120 to 130. Guess I have to talk to a frame builder to get a straight answer.
Although, a 126 to 130mm spread is more common, I think 10mm wouldn't be out of the question, as long as it is done properly/carefully..... Just make sure they follow up with proper alignment of the dropout faces....
__________________
72 Line Seeker
83 Davidson Signature
84 Peugeot PSV
84 Peugeot PY10FC
84 Gitane Tour de France.
85 Vitus Plus Carbone 7
86 ALAN Record Carbonio
86 Medici Aerodynamic (Project)
88 Pinarello Montello
89 Bottecchia Professional Chorus SL
95 Trek 5500 OCLV (Project)
Chombi1 is offline  
Old 12-12-17, 11:08 AM
  #15  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,117

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2160 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 551 Times in 387 Posts
Shrinkers, I trust the frame you have coldset is steel. I looked up your Trek 1200 and 1400 and they both appear to be aluminum. I hope you are not talking about coldsettng those frames. Aluminum does not take well to coldsetting. A frame of 531 or 1970s, 80s Columbus can be coldset and probably several times without issue. What we do not know is how careful the builder of the frame was with heat or how many times/how hard he had to coldset it to bring it to sellable alignment.

The good thing is that if the frame does fail from being coldset too often, the failure will be no big deal outside being a ride/frame ender. Highly unlikely you will get hurt. I broke a Peugeot UO-8 chainstay just behind the gusset and just happened to notice when I looked down that something was wrong. The chainstay was swinging in the breeze. Rode it 2 mile home without issue.

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Old 12-12-17, 11:21 AM
  #16  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,117

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2160 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 551 Times in 387 Posts
Originally Posted by CrankyFranky View Post
Huh. I've had two bike shops that declined my asking them to spread my 531 from 120 to 130. Guess I have to talk to a frame builder to get a straight answer.
You took the wrong approach. You could have gone to shop 1), asked for and got a spread 120 to 126. Then go to shop 2) and ask for and get a spread from 126 to 130. Does your town have two more shops?

My Mooney came (at my request) 120. Had it spread to 126 20 years ago. I have been debating going to 130 but have held off. Glad I did. Last year I set it up fix gear with a Miche Pista fix-fix flip-flop hub dished 4mm so I can run 3 cogs (with a "dingle") on three separate chainlines. Having the space from 126 made it easy. I probably could have managed 130 but I really didn't need another hoop to jump through! (Custom "dingle", custom chainring bolts, a Phil Wood BB that made dialing in the exact chainlines a piece of cake and lots of computer/CAD time to find an approach that would work.)

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Old 12-12-17, 06:01 PM
  #17  
exmechanic89
Senior Member
 
exmechanic89's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Richmond VA area
Posts: 2,713

Bikes: '00 Koga Miyata Full Pro Oval Road bike.

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 475 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Cold setting, the euphemism for bending.
exmechanic89 is offline  
Old 12-16-17, 07:38 PM
  #18  
Shinkers
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 725

Bikes: '88 Trek 1200, '91 Trek 1400

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Another quick question to add to this thread, but first a clarification:


79, this frame is steel. I definitely wouldn't try and cold set aluminum, I just slid my 130 hub into my 126 frame by springing it with my thumbs. Worked great .


After re-setting my frame, I checked it with a string for alignment and it measure totally dead nuts on (which it always has). I got my wheels and put them in the frame and got it centered in the chainstays using my dropout alignment screws and it looks completely straight with my seat tube.


However, if I measure at the seat stays, my drive side stay is about 2mm closer than the non-drive side. Brake lines up fine, and everything looks good except for when I put a ruler to it. Could this be due to how the frame was built? Or could it be from my alignment even though it string-tests fine? The frame is a Tenax Schwinn if that matters.
Shinkers is offline  
Old 12-17-17, 01:40 PM
  #19  
obrentharris 
Senior Member
 
obrentharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 2,900

Bikes: fewer (n-1)

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 766 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 417 Times in 205 Posts
Originally Posted by Shinkers View Post
...
After re-setting my frame, I checked it with a string for alignment and it measure totally dead nuts on (which it always has). I got my wheels and put them in the frame and got it centered in the chainstays using my dropout alignment screws and it looks completely straight with my seat tube.


However, if I measure at the seat stays, my drive side stay is about 2mm closer than the non-drive side. Brake lines up fine, and everything looks good except for when I put a ruler to it. Could this be due to how the frame was built? Or could it be from my alignment even though it string-tests fine? The frame is a Tenax Schwinn if that matters.
First thing to check is whether your wheel is properly dished.
Brent
obrentharris is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Camilo
Classic & Vintage
56
04-05-20 05:09 PM
Cha1nsaw
Bicycle Mechanics
12
02-27-15 10:53 AM
Road Fan
Framebuilders
4
03-01-12 05:22 AM
20grit
Classic & Vintage
30
09-01-10 10:55 AM
chico1st
Bicycle Mechanics
10
03-04-10 10:52 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.