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Old 09-28-18, 05:40 AM
  #5176  
Baby Puke
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I think this depends heavily on the official's discretion. Recently I had my bike DQed because the official did not understand the morphological exemption rule. No arguing with him. A month later at the same track, a different official let me ride even though he showed my my bars were about 1cm over the limit. You just never know.
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Old 09-28-18, 10:18 AM
  #5177  
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Yes I explained it to them as I did here. They said I'd have to immediately pull up and slow roll.

And...what a UCI official tells you at an event is what is correct (for that event). If they say 'yes' to something, then the answer is 'yes.'
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Old 09-28-18, 11:10 AM
  #5178  
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Small and simple: Why are there no gears?
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Old 09-28-18, 11:21 AM
  #5179  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
I think this depends heavily on the official's discretion. Recently I had my bike DQed because the official did not understand the morphological exemption rule. No arguing with him. A month later at the same track, a different official let me ride even though he showed my my bars were about 1cm over the limit. You just never know.
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Yes I explained it to them as I did here. They said I'd have to immediately pull up and slow roll.

And...what a UCI official tells you at an event is what is correct (for that event). If they say 'yes' to something, then the answer is 'yes.'
This illustrates exactly why there is a rule in place and why there are technical rules in all sports...it removes the element of discretion.

Last edited by carleton; 09-28-18 at 11:26 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 09-28-18, 01:06 PM
  #5180  
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Originally Posted by Riveting View Post
Small and simple: Why are there no gears?
The sport was created when bicycles were the #1 means of mechanical transportation. It was super popular just like the #1 means of transportation now (cars) gives rise to one of the top spectator sports (NASCAR and motorsport in general).

The first bikes were fixed gears. Even the first 20-30 years of Tour De France races were on fixed gears.

So, when bikes evolved, some genres of the sport changed and some stayed the same. Now look at how many different genres of professional cycling we have: BMX, CX, MTB, Track, Road, MTB Trials, etc...

Put another way: "Why are their foot races when cars exist?"
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Old 09-28-18, 04:01 PM
  #5181  
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Two beginner questions:
1. Are there gear inch limits in beginner level races?
2. What kind of cadence is required to be competitive on a 48x17 gearing

I'm considering what front chaining I may need to get if I want to complete and compete in a beginner category training program and races.

I'm wondering how fast I have to spin my road 48x17 (as a target) before it's even worth considering paying insurance and track fees.
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Old 09-28-18, 04:58 PM
  #5182  
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Originally Posted by Bang0Bang00 View Post
Two beginner questions:
1. Are there gear inch limits in beginner level races?
2. What kind of cadence is required to be competitive on a 48x17 gearing
1. Depends on the race organiser. It is rare here down under

2. Don't over think it. Just get on the track and have fun.
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Old 09-28-18, 07:49 PM
  #5183  
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Originally Posted by Bang0Bang00 View Post
Two beginner questions:
1. Are there gear inch limits in beginner level races?
2. What kind of cadence is required to be competitive on a 48x17 gearing

I'm considering what front chaining I may need to get if I want to complete and compete in a beginner category training program and races.

I'm wondering how fast I have to spin my road 48x17 (as a target) before it's even worth considering paying insurance and track fees.
Welcome to the sport!

Many of your newbie questions and concerns will be covered here, including gearing: https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...ack-racer.html

Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
1. Depends on the race organiser. It is rare here down under

2. Don't over think it. Just get on the track and have fun.
+1
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Old 09-28-18, 08:08 PM
  #5184  
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That's a pretty light gear. Most beginner bikes will come with a 48*15 for their stock gear, which is sort of where most beginners end up starting to race. You can check out this page that does gear/speed/cadence calculations.

BikeCalc.com - Speed at all Cadences for any Gear and Wheel

Here;s a chart with 47-51 chainrings and 13-17 cogs

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Old 09-28-18, 10:34 PM
  #5185  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
This illustrates exactly why there is a rule in place and why there are technical rules in all sports...it removes the element of discretion.
Yet the official's discretion is still the ultimate say on race day.
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Old 09-28-18, 11:35 PM
  #5186  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Yet the official's discretion is still the ultimate say on race day.
Not if you protest and say, "Show me the rule."

Athletes are responsible for knowing the rulebook, too.

Let's say Rider A has the best time so far. Then Rider B flubs a start and asks for a restart and it is granted and Rider B rides a better time. Rider A can protest and ask why it was granted and file a protest.

The protest will be reviewed and if Rider B is found to have been wrongfully given a re-ride, then that ride will be discarded.

If I remember correctly, you have 15 minutes after an event to file a formal protest.
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Old 09-28-18, 11:40 PM
  #5187  
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FYI, unclipping from a pedal is not grounds for a restart.

If your pedal breaks, cleat breaks, strap breaks, yes, you can get a restart. But, if you simply unclip, no. Why? Unclipping is not your pedal breaking.

Every single on of the hundreds of rules in the rule book is there for a reason...because one day something happened, there was drama, and a rule had to be made in order to keep the drama from happening in the future.

If I'm officiating and a rider pulls out of a pedal and rolls off the track and asks for a restart.

Question 1: Did something break?
If the answer is yes, then show me. If the answer is no, then DNF.

If I grant a restart, it makes 1 athlete happy and pisses off everyone else in the field. That's not fair.

Until the UCI rule above is amended, that is the rule (not my interpretation).

The rule is there for you to use. Use it if you need to or if you feel like someone else is given an unfair advantage. This is why rules exist and we all agree to abide by them when participating.

Last edited by carleton; 09-29-18 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 09-29-18, 12:02 AM
  #5188  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Not if you protest and say, "Show me the rule."
Dude, try this in Japan!
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Old 09-29-18, 12:17 AM
  #5189  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Dude, try this in Japan!
Hahaha! I have no idea what Japanese sport culture is like.

To reframe the same situation but slightly differently, let's say that I'm doing a doing a flying 200M and I'm seated doing my windup then when I stand up to jump to dive into turn 1...I unclip. Nothing breaks. Just a plain old unclip due to bad pedaling form.

Do I get a do-over?




I would not get a do-over.

It stands to reason that if I don't get a do-over when unclipping in the middle of an event, I wouldn't get a do-over when unclipping at the beginning of an event.
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Old 09-29-18, 12:26 AM
  #5190  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Hahaha! I have no idea what Japanese sport culture is like.
Extremely authority-oriented- the official is simply not questioned, even if they clearly are 10 years behind in their knowledge of the rules. That said, I have gotten re-rides here due to unclipping, but to be fair it was when I was using traditional pedals. With step-ins + a strap, it should probably never happen unless there is a genuine mechanical issue (broken cleat; broken pedal), in which case I think a re-ride would be in order. Without that, how do you ever unclip accidentally?
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Old 09-30-18, 04:48 PM
  #5191  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
This illustrates exactly why there is a rule in place and why there are technical rules in all sports...it removes the element of discretion.
unfortunately, in cycling, many rules are written so vaguely that enforcing them winds up being a matter of discretion anyway. i think about this often re: the rule banning collusion.
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Old 09-30-18, 05:47 PM
  #5192  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Extremely authority-oriented- the official is simply not questioned, even if they clearly are 10 years behind in their knowledge of the rules. That said, I have gotten re-rides here due to unclipping, but to be fair it was when I was using traditional pedals. With step-ins + a strap, it should probably never happen unless there is a genuine mechanical issue (broken cleat; broken pedal), in which case I think a re-ride would be in order. Without that, how do you ever unclip accidentally?
I used to do it on speedplay and looks because my right heel like to do funny things under power on the upstroke. Bought up about 8 sets of SPD-Rs and about 20 sets of cleats, problem remedied (for the next hundred years or so).
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Old 09-30-18, 08:23 PM
  #5193  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
I have pulled out of Look pedals and toe straps before, likely due to a worn cleat. It is possible.
Yeah, I've seen it happen a couple times, one of which resulted in a pretty nasty crash. That guy started using straps when he got back on the track.
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Old 10-01-18, 05:03 AM
  #5194  
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The few times I’ve personally witnessed a pulled cleat it was a worn cleat every time. I use straps, but it’s because it removes the movement in my shoes. I’ve never pulled a cleat on my trainer bike, even with all the big gear stupid high resistance efforts on my kickr, so theoretically I shouldn’t pull one on track. For regular club racing, I don’t even tighten my straps
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Old 10-01-18, 06:02 AM
  #5195  
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I use straps in sprints, flying 200s, and standing starts. I sometimes use them when practicing those efforts, sometimes not.

I don't really expect to pull out of my pedals. I'm not a massive guy, and I do take good care of my equipment and replaced worn parts routinely, but I like having that back up there just in case something were to go wrong.
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Old 10-01-18, 08:58 AM
  #5196  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
unfortunately, in cycling, many rules are written so vaguely that enforcing them winds up being a matter of discretion anyway. i think about this often re: the rule banning collusion.
I agree. Some things are subjective. I watched two teammates from Colorado be relegated and DQ'd for Collusion in a 4-up match sprint at Masters Nationals once. The offending gesture was them making eye contact.

But, I've never seen it called at TTown during Keirin tournaments when there are 2 sets of 3 members of a National team blocking and boxing like crazy...in a UCI event with UCI Points being awarded.

I think that technical rules are much less ambiguous. Technical rules being things that can be objectively measured (like frame dimensions, saddle setback, broken or not). I think that a broken chain, pedal, cleat, saddle, etc... should be fairly straightforward. There should be a clear distinction between a worn cleat and a broken one. The latter having cracks or being in multiple pieces. Any cleat wear should be considered user error and not a defect.

Regarding disengaging pedals:

I disengaged during my first ever flying 200 effort during my certification course. I was running Shimano SPD-SL pedals with a tension set fine for road riding. When I stood up for my jump my left foot disengaged. I was pulling up vertically, not twisting my foot. Luckily I was able to get down on the saddle and do a one-footed shuffle for a while then get back into the pedal...and complete the F200

But, as other's have mentioned, I've also seen worse. I watched a guy at then end of a scratch race stand to do a "roadie sprint" (waving back and forth) and disengaged his Speedplay Zeroes and hit the deck breaking his collar bone. He threatened to sue the bike shop that installed them, however I (and many others) happened to have eyes on him (it being the final sprint and all) when the accident happened, and we all agreed that it was his form. I don't think he ever raced on the track again.

Last edited by carleton; 10-01-18 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 10-01-18, 11:16 AM
  #5197  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post

Regarding disengaging pedals:

I disengaged during my first ever flying 200 effort during my certification course. I was running Shimano SPD-SL pedals with a tension set fine for road riding. When I stood up for my jump my left foot disengaged. I was pulling up vertically, not twisting my foot. Luckily I was able to get down on the saddle and do a one-footed shuffle for a while then get back into the pedal...and complete the F200

.
I was at Master Natz in Seattle in 1998 (at least I think it was Seattle, pre-crash events are still a little sketchy) in a rep final when I broke one of two straps on my right foot (I was using old-style, non clip in pedals) when we both jumped for the run to the line. I didn't think about stopping, just jammed my foot back under the toe clip held in place by the unbroken single strap and engaged the cleat. I chased hard and came about 6 inches away from moving into the semi's. I guess I could have asked for a re-ride, but it never even occurred to me. Carleton is right, know the rules. I don't know if I would have been given a re-ride, but it never hurts to ask!
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Old 10-01-18, 01:51 PM
  #5198  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I agree. Some things are subjective. I two teammates be relegated and DQ'd for Collusion in a 4-up match sprint at Masters Nationals once. The offending gesture was them making eye contact.

But, I've never seen it called at TTown during Keirin tournaments when there are 2 sets of 3 members of a National team blocking and boxing like crazy...in a UCI event with UCI Points being awarded.

I think that technical rules are much less ambiguous. Technical rules being things that can be objectively measured. I think that a broken chain, pedal, cleat, saddle, etc... should be fairly straightforward. There should be a clear distinction between a worn cleat and a broken one. The latter having cracks or being in multiple pieces. Any cleat wear should be considered user error and not a defect.
ha, don't get me started about UCI races at TTown. In endurance races the past few years, the Argentinian Nat'l Team, and a bunch of riders from T&T have been pretty notorious for straight-up collusion. 4 person leadouts, etc. But with collusion, the rule is written so broadly about doing something that sacrifices your own chances; I've been in breakaways where I'm outbluffed and I realize that I need to put my head down and ride to the finish, sacrificing 1st to ensure that we stay away and I get 2nd (well, I've been on both ends of this bluff). This technically violates the rules.

And here's the danger: I agree that technical rules are much less ambiguous but the more specificity you add the worse it gets. If I put on fresh cleats last week, go for a few rides, and then break one in my start today - an official could point to signs of having been clipped in and clipped out a few times as "wear" and say "This is bad maintenance, not a malfunction."

I mean basically as I've mulled this over I've come to two realizations: the rules are insufficiently written, and they must be. To get really specific is to pain yourself into a corner. Some things work really specifically because they're easy to follow, like a sprint lane violation (btw - this is in effect "once the sprint is engaged." how is this determine?!); other things don't, like collusion. It's a mess, and I think the mess is part of bike racing: it's live, it's dynamic, and it takes place in a huge group. It's much messier in road cycling, because officials can't see as much as they can in track - but either way it's messy.
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Old 10-02-18, 04:07 AM
  #5199  
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Pulling out happens more often in the first 3 pedal strokes in a standing start (500m or Kilo)...which is exactly when it happened. I wasn't aware this was news to people.
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Old 10-02-18, 04:09 AM
  #5200  
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Originally Posted by rensho3 View Post
I was at Master Natz in Seattle in 1998 (at least I think it was Seattle, pre-crash events are still a little sketchy) in a rep final when I broke one of two straps on my right foot (I was using old-style, non clip in pedals) when we both jumped for the run to the line. I didn't think about stopping, just jammed my foot back under the toe clip held in place by the unbroken single strap and engaged the cleat. I chased hard and came about 6 inches away from moving into the semi's. I guess I could have asked for a re-ride, but it never even occurred to me. Carleton is right, know the rules. I don't know if I would have been given a re-ride, but it never hurts to ask!
You don't get a re-ride in mass start events: only the individual ones like TT. The UCI was super explicit about that distinction.
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