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Addiction LXXVI

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Addiction LXXVI

Old 11-05-19, 02:32 PM
  #1926  
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I still can't upload a pic. I was trying to show a cute one of daughter #1 and Jackie the cat. Not working.
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Old 11-05-19, 02:58 PM
  #1927  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
Bought my wife a trainer tire, a Tacx 650B in a lovely, robin's egg blue. She loves it.
I bought a red Vittoria trainer tire last year. I was surprised at how much more quiet and smooth it was compared to running an older road tire. Totally makes the dumb, wheel-on trainer more livable.
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Old 11-05-19, 03:45 PM
  #1928  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I bought a red Vittoria trainer tire last year. I was surprised at how much more quiet and smooth it was compared to running an older road tire. Totally makes the dumb, wheel-on trainer more livable.
Totally. I have one of those Vittorias on my trainer bike.
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Old 11-05-19, 09:12 PM
  #1929  
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Dude. W. T. F.

Got everything prepped for a trainer ride tomorrow and all that was left to do was renew my Trainer Road membership. Logged on to see that those MFers raised the prices again. They raised the price from $12 to $15/month less than a year ago, and now they bumped it up to $20. Like, why? They're touting new analytics and ****, but... no. I want a handful of interval sessions with a little power ball to keep on target. I'm just not seeing the value - I'll have to look other options.
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Old 11-05-19, 10:08 PM
  #1930  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Dude. W. T. F.

Got everything prepped for a trainer ride tomorrow and all that was left to do was renew my Trainer Road membership. Logged on to see that those MFers raised the prices again. They raised the price from $12 to $15/month less than a year ago, and now they bumped it up to $20. Like, why? They're touting new analytics and ****, but... no. I want a handful of interval sessions with a little power ball to keep on target. I'm just not seeing the value - I'll have to look other options.
Nope.
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Old 11-05-19, 10:36 PM
  #1931  
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Downloaded the Zwift trial. Not looking for the game-ifying aspect, but will check out some intervals. Will probably look at SufferFest, too.

******g TrainerRoad.
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Old 11-06-19, 05:18 AM
  #1932  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Downloaded the Zwift trial. Not looking for the game-ifying aspect, but will check out some intervals. Will probably look at SufferFest, too.

******g TrainerRoad.
I find Zwift motivating when unsafe to ride outside. Most likely because I do group rides with friends. It beats the boredom IMO. For structured training I suspect it’s not up to TR but let us know your impression after you try it a few times.

Their user interface is not very intuitive. You have to be in a ride to access several features and settings.
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Old 11-06-19, 05:32 AM
  #1933  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Downloaded the Zwift trial. Not looking for the game-ifying aspect, but will check out some intervals. Will probably look at SufferFest, too.

******g TrainerRoad.
Rouvy?
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Old 11-06-19, 05:48 AM
  #1934  
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I am using Zwift for structured workouts. We also have a Rouvy subscription, but there are only a few structured workouts that provide mechanistically realistic visuals—most provide only a chart—and none provide the social thing, except in a rudimentary way. Zwift also has multi-day programs. Rouvy is great for unstructured riding, especially when you want to control the effort and don’t want the constant competitive stimulation from droves of other Freds. It’s also a refreshing break from Zwift, which feels really idiotic after a while.

I will also say that it’s very hard For me to attend to anything but cadence in ergo mode, once the going gets tough.

Last edited by MoAlpha; 11-06-19 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 11-06-19, 06:51 AM
  #1935  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Downloaded the Zwift trial. Not looking for the game-ifying aspect, but will check out some intervals. Will probably look at SufferFest, too.

******g TrainerRoad.
I primarily use Zwift, but am also looking at other options. The Sufferfest 4D stuff looks interesting. I may have to go for a trial of that.

I didn't like Rouvy in that it didn't seem to play well with my Direto. A small change in slope on Rouvy ( like .5% ) would cause an inordinate amount of resistance for a few seconds and then level out to what it should feel like. That really killed trying to enjoy a nice virtual route.

VirtuGo finally closed up, but it was a really good attempt at copying Zwift.

There's still BigRing VR for riding with resistance and decent video and Road Grand Tours is really still in development.
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Old 11-06-19, 07:57 AM
  #1936  
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I'll ride Zwift today, barring some unforeseen technical or toddler difficulties, but the more I look, the more Sufferfest looks like play for someone that just wants to work (without paying almost double the price with TR).

Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
I will also say that it’s very hard For me to attend to anything but cadence in ergo mode, once the going gets tough.
I obviously don't have a smart trainer with which to experience ergo mode but, for whatever reason, I don't like the notion of doing intervals in ergo mode. Having resistance that just sticks put no matter your cadence/torque just seems... not real and it makes me question how translatable it is to the real world. I think it'd be great for immersion in virtual rides, but I'm just interested in virtual rides.
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Old 11-06-19, 08:08 AM
  #1937  
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Sub-freezing temperatures in the city Friday night. I am not ready for this.
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Old 11-06-19, 08:20 AM
  #1938  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I'll ride Zwift today, barring some unforeseen technical or toddler difficulties, but the more I look, the more Sufferfest looks like play for someone that just wants to work (without paying almost double the price with TR).



I obviously don't have a smart trainer with which to experience ergo mode but, for whatever reason, I don't like the notion of doing intervals in ergo mode. Having resistance that just sticks put no matter your cadence/torque just seems... not real and it makes me question how translatable it is to the real world. I think it'd be great for immersion in virtual rides, but I'm just interested in virtual rides.
If I understand you correctly, I think you have the wrong idea about ergo mode. In ergo mode, resistance goes down with increasing cadence to keep power constant, allowing one to trade them off differently according the the goal of the workout.

I have done a fair amount of interval training in three sports without and without speed and heart rate feedback, as well as a little indoor cycling with power measurement, which I find difficult because of its second to second variability, and I now think ergo is the dog's bollocks.
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Old 11-06-19, 08:51 AM
  #1939  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
If I understand you correctly, I think you have the wrong idea about ergo mode. In ergo mode, resistance goes down with increasing cadence to keep power constant, allowing one to trade them off differently according the the goal of the workout.

I have done a fair amount of interval training in three sports without and without speed and heart rate feedback, as well as a little indoor cycling with power measurement, which I find difficult because of its second to second variability, and I now think ergo is the dog's bollocks.
Yeah, I worded it poorly, I should have said that the output stays put, rather than the resistance. In any event, it's the idea of that inverse reaction that I'm not so keen on - if I'm motoring down the road, and I do nothing but increase my cadence, my resistance and output will both increase. If I'm looking to get stronger in the real world, I don't see why I'd want the mechanics to be totally out of sync with that. And yeah, shifting in the real world obviously lets you hunt for the right zone for desired cadence/torque/output, but there's still that difficult second-to-second variability that you mention, and I feel like dealing with that is important to the struggle.

I only have a couple of IRL friends that train with smart trainers, so the sample size doesn't mean anything, but TBH, they're not as strong IRL as they are on the trainer. One of the guys in particular is within 10-15w of my trainer FTP, but a good deal lighter (prolly 30lbs, even now). Yes, my short-term power curve is different than his, but there still should be lots of instances where he crushes me IRL... yet those moments don't materialize.

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind on the matter should I buy a new toy trainer in the near future.
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Old 11-06-19, 08:56 AM
  #1940  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yeah, I worded it poorly, I should have said that the output stays put, rather than the resistance. In any event, it's the idea of that inverse reaction that I'm not so keen on - if I'm motoring down the road, and I do nothing but increase my cadence, my resistance and output will both increase. If I'm looking to get stronger in the real world, I don't see why I'd want the mechanics to be totally out of sync with that. And yeah, shifting in the real world obviously lets you hunt for the right zone for desired cadence/torque/output, but there's still that difficult second-to-second variability that you mention, and I feel like dealing with that is important to the struggle.

I only have a couple of IRL friends that train with smart trainers, so the sample size doesn't mean anything, but TBH, they're not as strong IRL as they are on the trainer. One of the guys in particular is within 10-15w of my trainer FTP, but a good deal lighter (prolly 30lbs, even now). Yes, my short-term power curve is different than his, but there still should be lots of instances where he crushes me IRL... yet those moments don't materialize.

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind on the matter should I buy a new toy trainer in the near future.
I get my clock cleaned regular by people who seem to spend the winters indoors, but it must be true that you need to thrash up real hills in order to get strong IRL. Of course, the smart trainer works fine in open loop mode...
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Old 11-06-19, 09:09 AM
  #1941  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Dude. W. T. F.

Got everything prepped for a trainer ride tomorrow and all that was left to do was renew my Trainer Road membership. Logged on to see that those MFers raised the prices again. They raised the price from $12 to $15/month less than a year ago, and now they bumped it up to $20. Like, why? They're touting new analytics and ****, but... no. I want a handful of interval sessions with a little power ball to keep on target. I'm just not seeing the value - I'll have to look other options.
That's a bummer. $15 is fine but $20 crosses a line for me, for some reason.

I paused my TR subscription over the summer but over the past few years I found the TR structured plans to be the most effective for building and maintaining fitness, for me at least.

I do Zwift for fun and TR for training, at least historically. Zwift without a smart trainer is pretty useless, IMO. I just can't get into it unless I have the direct feedback from the smart trainer so I can sort of feel like I'm going up and down hills, etc. I saw massive results from TR even when I had a dumb trainer and was just going off perceived effort and cadence.

If you really want to go the DIY route, check out Golden Cheetah. You'd have to input all of your own workouts, but it's endlessly customizable. It will even control smart trainers, allegedly.

I would never suggest that an existing TR subscriber copy a bunch of workouts and input them into Golden Cheetah. Nope, I would never think about encouraging such behavior.
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Old 11-06-19, 09:23 AM
  #1942  
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
I would never suggest that an existing TR subscriber copy a bunch of workouts and input them into Golden Cheetah. Nope, I would never think about encouraging such behavior.
That's some real creative and original IP, there.
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Old 11-06-19, 09:26 AM
  #1943  
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
That's a bummer. $15 is fine but $20 crosses a line for me, for some reason.

I paused my TR subscription over the summer but over the past few years I found the TR structured plans to be the most effective for building and maintaining fitness, for me at least.

I do Zwift for fun and TR for training, at least historically. Zwift without a smart trainer is pretty useless, IMO. I just can't get into it unless I have the direct feedback from the smart trainer so I can sort of feel like I'm going up and down hills, etc. I saw massive results from TR even when I had a dumb trainer and was just going off perceived effort and cadence.

If you really want to go the DIY route, check out Golden Cheetah. You'd have to input all of your own workouts, but it's endlessly customizable. It will even control smart trainers, allegedly.

I would never suggest that an existing TR subscriber copy a bunch of workouts and input them into Golden Cheetah. Nope, I would never think about encouraging such behavior.
One of the other things that irks me about the TR price bump is the way that it happened and the justification afterwards. They didn't notify the user base in advance at all. Just one day, boom - $19.95. After the fact, they said that they didn't want to give notice because they felt is was a "disservice" to the loyalty of the year-round subscribers. Gimme a ******g break. For years, they marketed themselves as a come as you are, easy peasy, on/off season training option. Now the people that took advantage of that, but came back, year after year, are second-class users. **** that noise.

Yeah, I've been thinking about creating some workouts based on a handful of favorites on TR (and really, we're just talking about 5x5 and stuff like that - not exactly innovative intellectual property theft). I know that I can do some stuff on the Wahoo Bolt, but I need to spend some time looking over how to get that done. I'll check out GC, too - thanks.
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Old 11-06-19, 09:27 AM
  #1944  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
That's some real creative and original IP, there.
Ha. Ninja'd in my long-windedness.
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Old 11-06-19, 09:31 AM
  #1945  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yeah, I worded it poorly, I should have said that the output stays put, rather than the resistance. In any event, it's the idea of that inverse reaction that I'm not so keen on - if I'm motoring down the road, and I do nothing but increase my cadence, my resistance and output will both increase. If I'm looking to get stronger in the real world, I don't see why I'd want the mechanics to be totally out of sync with that. And yeah, shifting in the real world obviously lets you hunt for the right zone for desired cadence/torque/output, but there's still that difficult second-to-second variability that you mention, and I feel like dealing with that is important to the struggle.

I only have a couple of IRL friends that train with smart trainers, so the sample size doesn't mean anything, but TBH, they're not as strong IRL as they are on the trainer. One of the guys in particular is within 10-15w of my trainer FTP, but a good deal lighter (prolly 30lbs, even now). Yes, my short-term power curve is different than his, but there still should be lots of instances where he crushes me IRL... yet those moments don't materialize.

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind on the matter should I buy a new toy trainer in the near future.
Seems that what you want more of is slope mode, where the slope is set and resistance increases with increasing power.

But erg mode is good for a couple of things. I like it to help me stay in Zone 2 for instance. If I want to do an hour of zone 2, then I just call up a hour long zone 2 "interval" and don't worry about trying to adjust my effort to the virtual terrain. Same for tempo or threshold. Just start the workout, ride for whatever time and exit the workout.

The other is actual structured intervals. If I want to program a workout where intensity varies a lot with time, I'll use erg mode to 'help' keep me at that power level. You can vary cadence and the power will adjust accordingly. However, one has to be aware of the double feedback system between your own effort and the trainer trying to maintain a set power level.

I find it hard to actually maintain a given power level outdoors with terrain and traffic, so the trainer really helps.
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Old 11-06-19, 09:55 AM
  #1946  
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Zwifting in progress. Come at me, bros.
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Old 11-06-19, 10:03 AM
  #1947  
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Count me in the 'not an erg fan' camp.
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Old 11-06-19, 11:01 AM
  #1948  
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How do people dig up obscure, old threads like the 98.5 or around the block one that was dormant for almost 9 years?
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Old 11-06-19, 11:03 AM
  #1949  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
How do people dig up obscure, old threads like the 98.5 or around the block one that was dormant for almost 9 years?
...and what's wrong with that? At least it was short.














and I answered it.
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Old 11-06-19, 11:06 AM
  #1950  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Zwifting in progress. Come at me, bros.
Well... eh. Felt good to get in a workout, really good. Even with the drop in saddle time in the last month, I'm still hitting the trainer in better shape than usual. So I got that goin' fer me, which is nice.

The visuals and game aspect didn't do much for me, though. If I had people online and chatting, I could see how it could break the monotony and be a nice proxy for group rides when the weather isn't cooperative... but what about the most important part, the post-ride beers?
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