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Hmm, still not a fan of the triple crankset.

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Hmm, still not a fan of the triple crankset.

Old 04-20-20, 03:49 PM
  #101  
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I really like my 2002 LeMond Zurich triple. It's a 52/42/30 triple with a 9 cog 12-25 rear cassette. I've only used the triple a few times. Going up a short half mile hill that has a 14-15% grade. Another was riding with a slower rider up a long 11 mile mtn pass that was a 6% grade. That was after already logging about 100 miles that day. I shifted into the triple about a mile from the top as the pace was slower.

Both my Fuji Transonic and Specialized Tarmac have a 52/36 crank with a 11-28 11 speed on the Fuji and a 11-30 11 speed on the Specialized. I think that I can pretty much get up anything on those two bikes.
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Old 04-20-20, 04:58 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
The triple is also annoyingly more difficult to adjust the FD for.
Got my FD adjusted to perfection in less than 20 minutes. Some people just have the skillz.
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Old 04-20-20, 05:53 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
The triple is also annoyingly more difficult to adjust the FD for.
For you, maybe. Ask an adult for help.
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Old 04-20-20, 06:56 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by JayKay3000 View Post
Got my FD adjusted to perfection in less than 20 minutes. Some people just have the skillz.
That’s about 18 minutes too long unless you are doing a new install. Then it’s about 10 minutes too long.

Just sayin’

Edit: Just to be clear, not all front derailers are equal. Shimano’s more expensive offerings are less forgiving in their setup. An Ultrega derailer is a wonder of channels and sculpting and guides to help in the shifting. Unfortunately all that metal work gets in the way and rubs in more gears that occurs in their lower priced front derailers. A Tiagra, Sora or Claris front derailer has fewer bells and whistles and they are better for it. They accommodate a wider range of gear combinations with less rubbing. The same applies to their mountain bikes. Deore and lower is generally better than anything higher.

Additionally, the position of the clamp can make a large difference in performance as well. For Shimano, a top swing clamp is far superior to a bottom swing.

All that’s goes out the window for SRAM...at least for mountain bike front derailers. Not a one of their front derailers is bad from top to bottom.
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Old 04-20-20, 06:56 PM
  #105  
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I can set up a triple FD (ran them for years) but It is plainly obvious to me that they are trickier to set up than a double.

As long as you have the high and low stops right, it is pretty hard to mess up the cable tension on a double. Just get it in the general ballpark and your are good. Same with the cage position. Doubles are much more tolerant of imperfect setup.

That is pretty much the definition of ďeasier to set upĒ.in my book.

So if someone finds keeping a triple well-adjusted to be a hassle, telling them that you are good at it is useless information to them unless you are offering to help them out with it.
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Old 04-21-20, 01:28 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
Yuppers.



The triple is also annoyingly more difficult to adjust the FD for.
It was until i fired the mechanic.
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Old 04-21-20, 10:55 AM
  #107  
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Hang on a minute--in what way is setting up a front derailleur different with a triple than with a double?
​​​​​​
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Old 04-21-20, 04:51 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by theDirtyLemon View Post
Hang on a minute--in what way is setting up a front derailleur different with a triple than with a double?
​​​​​​
Thatís what I would like to know. Front derailleur installation involves getting the derailleur the right height, angling it properly, setting the high and low limits, and the proper cable tension. It matters not how many chain rings there are...the variables are the same. Iíve had a few triples and doubles and have never had any problems setting up or shifting any of them.
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Old 04-21-20, 05:26 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I can set up a triple FD (ran them for years) but It is plainly obvious to me that they are trickier to set up than a double.

As long as you have the high and low stops right, it is pretty hard to mess up the cable tension on a double. Just get it in the general ballpark and your are good. Same with the cage position. Doubles are much more tolerant of imperfect setup.

That is pretty much the definition of ďeasier to set upĒ.in my book.

So if someone finds keeping a triple well-adjusted to be a hassle, telling them that you are good at it is useless information to them unless you are offering to help them out with it.
As theDirtyLemon and mihlbach have pointed out, there is not difference in setting up a triple vs a double. Set the high and low stops like any derailer and set the cable tension. Thereís nothing else to do. The shifter moves the cable and the cable moves the derailer. It just does what itís told to. What is the difference between that and a double?
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Old 04-21-20, 05:41 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
As theDirtyLemon and mihlbach have pointed out, there is not difference in setting up a triple vs a double. Set the high and low stops like any derailer and set the cable tension. Thereís nothing else to do. The shifter moves the cable and the cable moves the derailer. It just does what itís told to. What is the difference between that and a double?
I just answered this in the very post you are quoting.

Doubles are more tolerant of the cable tension and cage positioning being off than triples are.

Last edited by Kapusta; 04-21-20 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 04-21-20, 09:34 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I just answered this in the very post you are quoting.

Doubles are more tolerant of the cable tension and cage positioning being off than triples are.
Yeah, I always found doubles to be easy to adjust but I had a touring bike where I swapped one triple crankset for another & it was tough (I'm not a great mechanic) to get the front derailleur adjusted so I took it to the LBS. At any rate it was a low-cost one-time fix.
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Old 04-21-20, 09:47 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I just answered this in the very post you are quoting.

Doubles are more tolerant of the cable tension and cage positioning being off than triples are.
The cable tension in a triple and a double aren’t any different. If the tension is too loose, neither with shift into the outer ring and if it is too tight, neither will shift onto the inner ring. There’s no adjustment that can be made to make a triple shift into the middle ring. That is all controlled by the shifter.

People who complain about setting up triples vs doubles don’t seem to understand this important point. They make it a lot harder than it needs to be.
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Old 04-21-20, 10:43 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
Yuppers.

And to think, there are doubles with 22 speeds and triples with 21 speeds.

The triple is also annoyingly more difficult to adjust the FD for.
Nah, not really. Using arbitrary scale 1 - 10 with 1 being dead simple and 10 being impossible, I'd score a single 2, a double around 4 and triple around 4.5. Immaterial difference in the big picture, imho. Just part of setting a bike up. A rear derailleur and cassette is more difficult than a single speed. So what? It's part of the package.

Just for what it's worth, I wish they could make brake/shifter devices friction for the front derailleur like they do with indexed downtube shifters (the left shifter is usually (always?) friction). There's really no need for indexing with cranks.The shifting throw is very forgiving for either doubles or triples so that indexing is unnecessary to do it quickly, and trimming would be very easy and infinite.

I don't say the same thing about rear shifting with modern 9+ cassettes. I tried for a month or so to do a 9 speed bike with friction downtube shifters. But even having had many years of experience with friction shifters (OK, in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s, but still, many many shifts!), it was tough for me to get the shifts clean. The spaces between the sprockets required quite a bit better fine motor skills, and I often could not hear the need for trimming and suddenly had a ghost shift which would indicate the original shift was not good enough. Could be my hearing, but I also think modern chains might be just quieter enough to eliminate some drive train noise associated with needing to trim.

Last edited by Camilo; 04-21-20 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 04-22-20, 12:18 AM
  #114  
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(I started this more or less in response to Kapusta, got interrupted, time passed, now it sounds weird.)

Huh. I would guess that because the derailleur doesn't have to move as far to get both rings on a double, you can get away with a more, um, approximate set up. I don't usually think of that as 'easier to set up,' but I get it.

Also, fwiw, when I asked what was different about setting up the der on a triple vs. a double, I really was asking. I only work on stuff that's kinda old, and I started to wonder about innovations in derailleur technology since 1990.

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Old 04-22-20, 05:25 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
The cable tension in a triple and a double arenít any different. If the tension is too loose, neither with shift into the outer ring and if it is too tight, neither will shift onto the inner ring. Thereís no adjustment that can be made to make a triple shift into the middle ring. That is all controlled by the shifter.

People who complain about setting up triples vs doubles donít seem to understand this important point. They make it a lot harder than it needs to be.
Please explain this:

If the two are in fact no different to set up then why do so many people have a harder time with one than the other?

These complaints and experiences come up a lot in every thread like this. How do you explain that? Are they all lying?

If a bunch of people can easily do one thing but struggle with the other, then there MUST be a difference.

It is up to you whether you want to understand what that difference is. If you want to understand, Iíll try to help. If not, Iím not gonna waste my time.

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Old 04-22-20, 06:11 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
That’s what I would like to know. Front derailleur installation involves getting the derailleur the right height, angling it properly, setting the high and low limits, and the proper cable tension. It matters not how many chain rings there are...the variables are the same. I’ve had a few triples and doubles and have never had any problems setting up or shifting any of them.
Have the triples you set up been friction or indexed?

If we’re talking about setting up a Shimano indexed FD I think this is where the stories of daunting, complicated, less than optimal installations come from.

As you mention above, getting the right height, the proper angle and setting the high and low limits should put you in a good place to shift the front shifter to its lowest position then pull slack out of the cable inner wire, tighten the cinch bolt and call it a day.

Unfortunately (for me at least) - following the old simple logical path just welcomed some gremlins into the magic which you will know right away, you’re not there yet.

My dad loves to use the quote “read the freaking manual” when talking about computers or other things. I’ll admit, that I forgo the manual usually when doing a full re-cable on my road bike. If unfamiliar with the operation of a Shimano index triple set-up, it is best to review that manual. Hopefully the directions are in the box for your model of shifter. If not, you can always access Shimano’s PDF files on line. cyccommute thank you for your endorsement of the more utilitarian Shimano triple front derailleurs. I believe you and may in the future pick one these models with a more robust straightforward cage design than the Ultegra 6503, 6603, Dura Ace 7703 and 7803 models that I have tried.

But quickly in in a nutshell I will say this about the initial cabling of a Shimano indexed FD- use the set up block!
The set up block works along with the adjuster barrel to put your 2 major clicks to be approximately centered for your 3 chainrings. The cable tension will be too tight if you fail to use the setup block (or 5 mm Allen key) to wedge the front parallelogram inward a few mm (against some spring tension)for that initial pulling all slack out of a new shifter cable. Failure to do this, makes the FD think it is a double and attempts to force it to be a triple leads to much consternation. Now that the cable is taut here while centered on the small (30 tooth in my case) and the cinch bolt tightened down. The adjuster barrel then is quite easy to tweak (+) or (-) to you liking to fine tune your trim how you like it. My Dura Ace 7703 s.t.i. front triple shifter has a surprising bit of (extra) trim to fine tune out most chain rub.

But remembering to start your new cable in this offset position - when you experience the light effortless shifting that is then restored, well - it is a wonderful thing. I did it poorly, then got it right and ran my triple without issue (too many years) then when it was time to do a full re-cable forgot these critical details. So this last re-cable, I stumbled with the wrong logic again and got the same crap results.

But now I know (until I forget it again -haha). I love my triple indexed Shimano set-up. Yeah, initial set-up can be counter intuitive for bone heads such as myself. Sort of like installing Challenge open tubulars and latex tubes for the first time. After all the head scratching, punched tubes and blistered thumbs - there is an a-ha transformation from then on.

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Old 04-22-20, 08:26 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Please explain this:

If the two are in fact no different to set up then why do so many people have a harder time with one than the other?
I wonder how many people actually set up a triple or, for that a matter, a double. And by ďset upĒ, I mean install. Many people donít under derailers to begin with and they get confused about triples because they think there is something extra about them that needs adjustment. All of the (supposed) problems that come with triples can, and do, occur with doubles as I stated above.

If the number of people that I work with at my co-op is any indication, most people donít understand derailers. 90% of them grab a screwdriver when they have shifting problems.

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
These complaints and experiences come up a lot in every thread like this. How do you explain that? Are they all lying?
Perhaps ďlyingĒ is too strong a word but a lot of the supposed problems with triples are more apocryphal than actual. Many of the people who post statements against triples do so without ever having used one.

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
If a bunch of people can easily do one thing but struggle with the other, then there MUST be a difference.
Yes, there MUST be a difference. And that difference is a lack of understanding of how a derailer works. Iíve seen it thousands of times, literally. And Iím not using ďliterallyĒ figuratively. Iíve worked on 15,000 to 20,000 bikes in the last 10 years. Most of them have some kind of derailer problem that is easily fix but often exacerbated because people donít understand the derailer. 90% of all the problems with derailers...front or rear...that Iíve seen can be fixed with a simple cable adjustment but are usually made far worse by grabbing that screwdriver.

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
It is up to you whether you want to understand what that difference is. If you want to understand, Iíll try to help. If not, Iím not gonna waste my time.
No. It is up to you to explain what the difference is between a double and a triple if you think there is one. Both work on the same principle, work with the same cable, and are set up the same way. There is nothing different in setting up one or the other as Iíve pointed out above.
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Old 04-22-20, 08:48 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I
Yes, there MUST be a difference. And that difference is a lack of understanding of how a derailer works. I’ve seen it thousands of times, literally. And I’m not using “literally” figuratively. I’ve worked on 15,000 to 20,000 bikes in the last 10 years. Most of them have some kind of derailer problem that is easily fix but often exacerbated because people don’t understand the derailer. 90% of all the problems with derailers...front or rear...that I’ve seen can be fixed with a simple cable adjustment but are usually made far worse by grabbing that screwdriver.
.
I agree, most people don't understand how to adjust FDs (or RDs).

So then why is it that this lack of understanding makes it harder for them to adjust a triple than a double if, as you keep insisting, it is the same process and one no more difficult than the other?

You have still not explained this.

And by the way, one does not need to explain WHY something is the case if they can already show that it IS the case. There are people who find triples harder to install/adjust/fix/whatever. These threads are always full of them. I have never heard someone claim the opposite (doubles were harder). In my book that it about as reliable a measure of the relative difficulties of two tasks as I can think of.

One does not need to know WHY the sky is blue to know that it IS.

I have my explanations of why based on my experiences, but you don't agree. Oh, well, it really does not matter.

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Old 04-22-20, 09:04 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
Nah, not really. Using arbitrary scale 1 - 10 with 1 being dead simple and 10 being impossible, I'd score a single 2, a double around 4 and triple around 4.5. Immaterial difference in the big picture, imho. Just part of setting a bike up. A rear derailleur and cassette is more difficult than a single speed. So what? It's part of the package.

Just for what it's worth, I wish they could make brake/shifter devices friction for the front derailleur like they do with indexed downtube shifters (the left shifter is usually (always?) friction). There's really no need for indexing with cranks.The shifting throw is very forgiving for either doubles or triples so that indexing is unnecessary to do it quickly, and trimming would be very easy and infinite.

I don't say the same thing about rear shifting with modern 9+ cassettes. I tried for a month or so to do a 9 speed bike with friction downtube shifters. But even having had many years of experience with friction shifters (OK, in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s, but still, many many shifts!), it was tough for me to get the shifts clean. The spaces between the sprockets required quite a bit better fine motor skills, and I often could not hear the need for trimming and suddenly had a ghost shift which would indicate the original shift was not good enough. Could be my hearing, but I also think modern chains might be just quieter enough to eliminate some drive train noise associated with needing to trim.
Yes, especially for a double it could just be like a binary switch.

I've thought about it, but I never get around to it. I do like the idea of a bullhorn bar with a bar-end shifter on the end.
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Old 04-22-20, 11:30 AM
  #120  
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I must be missing something, I still can't figure out why anyone would need more than 5 gears.
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Old 04-22-20, 11:57 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Have the triples you set up been friction or indexed?
They have been both. I've never experienced difficulty installing or poor shifting with either.
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Old 04-22-20, 12:05 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by c0rbin9 View Post
I must be missing something, I still can't figure out why anyone would need more than 5 gears.
True! Back in the day my Schwinn fastback was a 1X5. I have no idea what the sizes of the cogs were. I did have a banana seat and a sissy bar because that's how I rolled.
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Old 04-22-20, 12:31 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
They have been both. I've never experienced difficulty installing or poor shifting with either.
You are mechanically blessed. Some of us are destined to encounter more vexing malfunctions than probably necessary. It is my inquisitive personality where I always want to do mix and match or run used versions of things. Sometimes everything meshes just great and I call it a success.
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Old 04-22-20, 04:35 PM
  #124  
theDirtyLemon
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...initial cabling of a Shimano indexed FD- use the set up block! .... The cable tension will be too tight if you fail to use the setup block (or 5 mm Allen key) to wedge the front parallelogram inward a few mm (against some spring tension)for that initial pulling all slack out of a new shifter cable.
Well okay, so sometimes setting up a triple IS different from setting up a double.
And if you didn't know about positioning the FD during set up the results would probably make you crazy.

It seems like the thing to remember is that if you have an indexed front der, you need to put the shift lever and the detailleur in position for lowest gear: derailleur centered over inner chainring, lever in first 'click'. Then pull the slack out of the cable.
If you don't have a 'setup block' you can use the lower limit screw on the derailleur to hold it where you need it.

The guiding logic is that when setting up a derailleur you are setting its default position, where it will be when you haven't moved the lever/pulled the cable.

If your shifter pulls a set, specific amount of cable for every shift (this is indexed shifting), that first position needs to line up with the first gear. If it's off by a couple mm, it'll miss every subsequent gear by the same distance. If it's off by the distance between two gears then it'll work, but you won't be able to shift into that last gear.
If you have friction shifting (as god intended) you just shove the chain around until it engages with some gear or other.

Last edited by theDirtyLemon; 04-22-20 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 04-22-20, 06:41 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Letís avoid those loaded words like ďstupidĒ and ďweakĒ and ďbeginnerĒ, shall we?



You said

Thatís gear hunting by definition. I make a shift from the outer ring to the middle ring and itís the only shift I make and the only one I have to make. Redoing the cassette on the gear calculator give this chart, the double still has a hole that the closer ratio triple doesnít have. By your own admission (see above), you upshift twice when you change from the outer chainring to the inner. If you are riding along in the 48/25 gear at 14mph, dropping from to the 32 tooth chainring drops you to 9 mph and you upshift to get to 12 mph. It makes little sense from a hill climbing perspective as youíll probably be downshifting soon on a 12% grade which will probably put you back to the 25 tooth gear in short order.

The main point of the triple is to give a wider range with more selection. You could consider a triple to be a close range double with a low gear. Look at the 50/40/30 crank in the example above. The speed in the 50/25 gear is about the same as your crank at the same RPM. Shifting from the outer ring to the 40 tooth ring drops the speed to 11 mph. Thatís not enough of a speed change to require a shift on the rear. Thus you arenít going back over the same shifts as you progress up the hill.



This is not my first rodeo. I see and feel hills. If you wait until you ďfeel excessive resistanceĒ, the hill is going to make you struggle. Once your cadence drops, itís difficult to regain it through shifting. Better to see a huge hill...12% isnít all that common in northern Colorado or anywhere in Colorado for that matter...and start preparing for it rather than waiting until you are in the middle to think about how to attack it.
Your example of shifting from the 17 was stupid. You picked this example to support your flawed analysis. Your idea that a 2 cog shift is hunting is also ridiculous. I make the same 2 cog shift, after nearly every chainring shift and it works perfectly. With Campy shifters, it's a 1 second event.

I've lived in Colorado since 2003 and ridden many different routes, both south and north of denver. I ride 12% grades within 15 miles of my home, west of Loveland, either to Pinewood Lake, or around Horsetooth Lake, depending on whether I head north or south from my home. I ride a 4 mile climb to Pinewood Lake where the whole length is 90% either in the 29 or 34 and my speed can drop to 5 mph. The compact gearing works fine and there is no hunting. In the mountainous terrain that I ride looks mean nothing. Gear changes are done by feel. I ride some roads that look to be level but aren't, due to the way they are carved out of a mountain.

As I noted, I rode triples in the mountains, for 5 years, but when compacts came out, I had no problems transitioning to a compact and the new 12 speed compact is the best yet.
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