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Congrats to Canadian Rachel McKinnon - New World Record 200M

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Congrats to Canadian Rachel McKinnon - New World Record 200M

Old 10-15-18, 06:02 PM
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Congrats to Canadian Rachel McKinnon - New World Record 200M

https://www.rt.com/news/441250-cycli...mpinship-wins/

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Old 10-16-18, 07:00 AM
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Congratulations to Carolien Van Herrikhuyzen of the Netherlands.
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Old 10-17-18, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by caretaker
congratulations to carolien van herrikhuyzen of the netherlands.
+1
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Old 10-17-18, 07:28 AM
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Hold on now. "Her" defense was that "she" was actually at a disadvantage, because "she" has to maintain low testosterone levels, lower than "other women?"

Without regard to pronouns, she was born male, and therefore has the musculature of a man-- no big deal, just like 20% more muscle on average.

So as many of the detractors noted, a male athlete entered a women's event and won. It's not super surprising.
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Old 10-17-18, 07:56 AM
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These 'podium girl' threads are getting boring.
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Old 10-18-18, 08:57 AM
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A stain to the rainbow stripes IMHO.

People on this topic too often go immediately to the social, political, and emotional responses. The reality is there is hard science behind the advantages a man is born with, even when considering any drug or therapy you can take to level out the hormones.

The physical structure of the cardiovascular system is larger, not to mention stature.

Just look at the VO2max and the highest watts/kg for elite men and women. The women are an entire 1.0 w/kg lower.

It's absolute crap. No, no congrats are in order. Facts that injure others have been ignored in the name of social progress here. It's not progress when you ignore facts and hurt all those other competitors for the perceived accomplishment of a single one.

It's a farce.
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Old 10-18-18, 03:49 PM
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If your original birth certificate says "M" then you can compete in men's races. If it says "F" then you can compete in women's races.

He can "identify" as an Alaskan Malamute if he wants, but he is still a male.

He beat a field of women. So what. Congratulations to the first and second place women in that race.
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Old 10-19-18, 04:08 PM
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jen wagner-assali‏ @jkwagnermd

Replying to @KTHopkinsI was the 3rd place rider. It’s definitely NOT fair.


To say that isn't fair is like saying fire is hot.
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Old 10-20-18, 07:23 PM
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You people are real jerks.
She won. She followed UCI rules (which are based on science practiced by actual scientists, not internet hacks) and was eligible to compete.
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Old 10-21-18, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile
You people are real jerks.
She won. She followed UCI rules (which are based on science practiced by actual scientists, not internet hacks) and was eligible to compete.
It appears the rules are in 'transition'.

This from October 19, 2018

Although there are no queries concerning Women-Men (W-M) transgender athletes, whose situation – at UCI level as for all International Federations (IF) – is controlled by therapeutic use exemptions (TUE), the current situation concerns M-W transgenders.

After some 18 months of substantial work, and after consultation with the IFs, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) should shortly announce guidelines covering the participation of M-W transgender athletes. This document should enable us to take into consideration, in line with the evolution of our society, the desire of these people to compete while at the same time guarantee as far as possible an equal chance for all participants in women’s competitions.

The UCI will adapt its regulations according to the guidelines of the IOC.
UCI statement on transgender Men-Women athlete's eligibility

In their reference to "equal chance" it appears to me that the UCI acknowledges there is an issue regarding fair competition in women's races.

BTW I don't think name calling adds anything to this discussion.
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Old 10-21-18, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Caretaker
It appears the rules are in 'transition'.

This from October 19, 2018



UCI statement on transgender Men-Women athlete's eligibility

In their reference to "equal chance" it appears to me that the UCI acknowledges there is an issue regarding fair competition in women's races.
Yes I know. That's how science works. As greater understanding is achieved, the rules will be tweaked to achieve the best balance of fairness and inclusiveness. This is not he same as some random internet poster looking at a picture and saying it must be unfair.
Originally Posted by Caretaker
BTW I don't think name calling adds anything to this discussion.
I stand by what I said.
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Old 10-21-18, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile
Yes I know. That's how science works. As greater understanding is achieved, the rules will be tweaked to achieve the best balance of fairness and inclusiveness. This is not he same as some random internet poster looking at a picture and saying it must be unfair.
The decision to 'tweak' the rules won't be made by scientists. Those tasked with making these decisions may have to choose between fairness and inclusiveness if they prove incompatible.
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Old 10-21-18, 05:43 PM
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"Inclusiveness" is already 100%. Males can compete in any men's event they choose, and females can compete in any women's event they choose. There is no need for more "inclusiveness" and it's mathematically impossible anyway.

Is this some kind of a twist on double secret probation?
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Old 10-22-18, 02:43 AM
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This is largely an academic issue for me as a male but obviously not for women athletes today.
Robert Miller was the most successful British male cyclist (KOM 1984 TdF) before Sir Brad but then transitioned to be Philippa York.
I notice Wiki ascribes his achievements on the bike to her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_York

This begs the question 'if Robert had transitioned to Philippa earlier would she have dominated women's cycling?'
The answer is probably yes, if the rules had permitted it.
So if say Peter transitioned to Petra in 2019 would she be welcome in the women's peloton?
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Old 10-22-18, 08:14 AM
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There are physical differences, this is a scientific fact. Writing “rules” that say otherwise cannot change this fact. This is a huge setback to women’s sports competition. It takes years of dedication, sacrifice and hard work to compete at the top levels of any sport. Why should they bother if they will then be knocked off the podium anyway?
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Old 10-23-18, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jimincalif
There are physical differences, this is a scientific fact. Writing “rules” that say otherwise cannot change this fact. This is a huge setback to women’s sports competition. It takes years of dedication, sacrifice and hard work to compete at the top levels of any sport. Why should they bother if they will then be knocked off the podium anyway?
Everyone has physical differences. Do you know what the specific differences are between a trans female and a cis female and whether those differences actually affect cycling performance? If not, perhaps you should leave the judgement to people who actually study this stuff. The rules don't attempt to change any fact, but rather are there to provide an even playing field for all people based on the currently available medical knowledge.

A little perspective is needed here. This is one person who won a single age-based event. When you consider the number of events multiplied by the number of age categories, it's one out of dozens of possible winners. Not exactly a "huge setback". The vast majority of cis gendered female athletes aren't being "knocked off the podium". If it turns into, say, 10 trans females winning across all the events and age categories, then maybe there's an issue.

Seriously, a lot of you guys are so quick to denounce something just because it seems weird to you that you don't stop to think a little.
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Old 10-23-18, 08:24 AM
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On the simplest level:

"Men are physically stronger than women, who have, on average, less total muscle mass, both in absolute terms and relative to total body mass. Men also have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments. Men have greater cardiovascular reserve, with larger hearts, greater lung volume per body mass, a higher red blood cell count, and higher haemoglobin."

So no advantage whatsoever, right? Athletes regularly take drugs to get things like, I dunno, greater muscle mass or increased RBC count. So even if you want to allow it and think allowing trans athletes into women's events is totally fine, McKinnon is basically doped.
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Old 10-23-18, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile
Everyone has physical differences.
True enough, and not every man nor every women has the physical ability to be a world champion,

But if we are going to classify the biological differences between men and women as just natural variation, then there is no justification at all to have separate competitions for men and women. Just do away with it all, as well as Title IX.
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Old 10-23-18, 09:54 AM
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In before this thread gets moved to P&R
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Old 10-23-18, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
On the simplest level:

"Men are physically stronger than women, who have, on average, less total muscle mass, both in absolute terms and relative to total body mass. Men also have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments. Men have greater cardiovascular reserve, with larger hearts, greater lung volume per body mass, a higher red blood cell count, and higher haemoglobin."

So no advantage whatsoever, right? Athletes regularly take drugs to get things like, I dunno, greater muscle mass or increased RBC count. So even if you want to allow it and think allowing trans athletes into women's events is totally fine, McKinnon is basically doped.
Is this in reply to me? If so, I fail to see the relevance since McKinnon is not a man.
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Old 10-23-18, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jimincalif


True enough, and not every man nor every women has the physical ability to be a world champion,

But if we are going to classify the biological differences between men and women as just natural variation, then there is no justification at all to have separate competitions for men and women. Just do away with it all, as well as Title IX.
Probably the only truly fair way to do things would be to have a single division. Differences in sex are genetic just like differences in size, muscle fiber type, insertion points, response to training, VO2 max etc. We don't make a separate "short person only" NBA like we make a women only NBA. It's a completely arbitrary decision in many respects.

But, IMO at least, having a slight degree of unfairness is better overall for society than having no women at the highest level of sport.
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Old 10-23-18, 11:51 AM
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And this is why I love American Ninja Warrior. One class. One competition. One course. Whoever wins is just awesome, capable, & inspirational. This to me embodies the spirit of sports & competition.

Women compete & win in ANW and they earn the respect on even terms.

Why cheapen women and their efforts by embracing a "seperate but equal" philosophy unless you believe they are not equal or as capable? I for one, know plenty of women who are both superior & more capable than myself. There's no sense in devaluing their accomplishment by the addition of "well, for a girl."
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Old 10-23-18, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile
Is this in reply to me? If so, I fail to see the relevance since McKinnon is not a man.
Bullsh*t. Born male is male, despite what anyone says to the contrary. Not behaving male does not make a male into a female. Male and female is biological, determined in the womb.
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Old 10-23-18, 02:28 PM
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I'm not talking about this philosophically-- if you put up a full-body X-ray of McKinnon and showed it to any doctor with the question, "Male or female?" You'd get one answer. For while psychologically-- that is, identifying as female, all the bits and pieces inside are... a guy.



You can't just "undo" that stuff.
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Old 10-23-18, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
I'm not talking about this philosophically-- if you put up a full-body X-ray of McKinnon and showed it to any doctor with the question, "Male or female?" You'd get one answer. For while psychologically-- that is, identifying as female, all the bits and pieces inside are... a guy.
You think. You don't know her surgical/drug history. Or maybe you're her doctor and you do. I don't really know you. Or her.
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