Congrats to Canadian Rachel McKinnon - New World Record 200M
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Congrats to Canadian Rachel McKinnon - New World Record 200M
#4
Non omnino gravis
Hold on now. "Her" defense was that "she" was actually at a disadvantage, because "she" has to maintain low testosterone levels, lower than "other women?"
Without regard to pronouns, she was born male, and therefore has the musculature of a man-- no big deal, just like 20% more muscle on average.
So as many of the detractors noted, a male athlete entered a women's event and won. It's not super surprising.
Without regard to pronouns, she was born male, and therefore has the musculature of a man-- no big deal, just like 20% more muscle on average.
So as many of the detractors noted, a male athlete entered a women's event and won. It's not super surprising.
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A stain to the rainbow stripes IMHO.
People on this topic too often go immediately to the social, political, and emotional responses. The reality is there is hard science behind the advantages a man is born with, even when considering any drug or therapy you can take to level out the hormones.
The physical structure of the cardiovascular system is larger, not to mention stature.
Just look at the VO2max and the highest watts/kg for elite men and women. The women are an entire 1.0 w/kg lower.
It's absolute crap. No, no congrats are in order. Facts that injure others have been ignored in the name of social progress here. It's not progress when you ignore facts and hurt all those other competitors for the perceived accomplishment of a single one.
It's a farce.
People on this topic too often go immediately to the social, political, and emotional responses. The reality is there is hard science behind the advantages a man is born with, even when considering any drug or therapy you can take to level out the hormones.
The physical structure of the cardiovascular system is larger, not to mention stature.
Just look at the VO2max and the highest watts/kg for elite men and women. The women are an entire 1.0 w/kg lower.
It's absolute crap. No, no congrats are in order. Facts that injure others have been ignored in the name of social progress here. It's not progress when you ignore facts and hurt all those other competitors for the perceived accomplishment of a single one.
It's a farce.
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If your original birth certificate says "M" then you can compete in men's races. If it says "F" then you can compete in women's races.
He can "identify" as an Alaskan Malamute if he wants, but he is still a male.
He beat a field of women. So what. Congratulations to the first and second place women in that race.
He can "identify" as an Alaskan Malamute if he wants, but he is still a male.
He beat a field of women. So what. Congratulations to the first and second place women in that race.
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jen wagner-assali @jkwagnermd
Replying to @KTHopkinsI was the 3rd place rider. It’s definitely NOT fair.
To say that isn't fair is like saying fire is hot.
Replying to @KTHopkinsI was the 3rd place rider. It’s definitely NOT fair.
To say that isn't fair is like saying fire is hot.
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You people are real jerks.
She won. She followed UCI rules (which are based on science practiced by actual scientists, not internet hacks) and was eligible to compete.
She won. She followed UCI rules (which are based on science practiced by actual scientists, not internet hacks) and was eligible to compete.
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This from October 19, 2018
Although there are no queries concerning Women-Men (W-M) transgender athletes, whose situation – at UCI level as for all International Federations (IF) – is controlled by therapeutic use exemptions (TUE), the current situation concerns M-W transgenders.
After some 18 months of substantial work, and after consultation with the IFs, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) should shortly announce guidelines covering the participation of M-W transgender athletes. This document should enable us to take into consideration, in line with the evolution of our society, the desire of these people to compete while at the same time guarantee as far as possible an equal chance for all participants in women’s competitions.
The UCI will adapt its regulations according to the guidelines of the IOC.
After some 18 months of substantial work, and after consultation with the IFs, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) should shortly announce guidelines covering the participation of M-W transgender athletes. This document should enable us to take into consideration, in line with the evolution of our society, the desire of these people to compete while at the same time guarantee as far as possible an equal chance for all participants in women’s competitions.
The UCI will adapt its regulations according to the guidelines of the IOC.
In their reference to "equal chance" it appears to me that the UCI acknowledges there is an issue regarding fair competition in women's races.
BTW I don't think name calling adds anything to this discussion.
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It appears the rules are in 'transition'.
This from October 19, 2018
UCI statement on transgender Men-Women athlete's eligibility
In their reference to "equal chance" it appears to me that the UCI acknowledges there is an issue regarding fair competition in women's races.
This from October 19, 2018
UCI statement on transgender Men-Women athlete's eligibility
In their reference to "equal chance" it appears to me that the UCI acknowledges there is an issue regarding fair competition in women's races.
I stand by what I said.
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The decision to 'tweak' the rules won't be made by scientists. Those tasked with making these decisions may have to choose between fairness and inclusiveness if they prove incompatible.
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"Inclusiveness" is already 100%. Males can compete in any men's event they choose, and females can compete in any women's event they choose. There is no need for more "inclusiveness" and it's mathematically impossible anyway.
Is this some kind of a twist on double secret probation?
Is this some kind of a twist on double secret probation?
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This is largely an academic issue for me as a male but obviously not for women athletes today.
Robert Miller was the most successful British male cyclist (KOM 1984 TdF) before Sir Brad but then transitioned to be Philippa York.
I notice Wiki ascribes his achievements on the bike to her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_York
This begs the question 'if Robert had transitioned to Philippa earlier would she have dominated women's cycling?'
The answer is probably yes, if the rules had permitted it.
So if say Peter transitioned to Petra in 2019 would she be welcome in the women's peloton?
Robert Miller was the most successful British male cyclist (KOM 1984 TdF) before Sir Brad but then transitioned to be Philippa York.
I notice Wiki ascribes his achievements on the bike to her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_York
This begs the question 'if Robert had transitioned to Philippa earlier would she have dominated women's cycling?'
The answer is probably yes, if the rules had permitted it.
So if say Peter transitioned to Petra in 2019 would she be welcome in the women's peloton?
#15
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There are physical differences, this is a scientific fact. Writing “rules” that say otherwise cannot change this fact. This is a huge setback to women’s sports competition. It takes years of dedication, sacrifice and hard work to compete at the top levels of any sport. Why should they bother if they will then be knocked off the podium anyway?
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There are physical differences, this is a scientific fact. Writing “rules” that say otherwise cannot change this fact. This is a huge setback to women’s sports competition. It takes years of dedication, sacrifice and hard work to compete at the top levels of any sport. Why should they bother if they will then be knocked off the podium anyway?
A little perspective is needed here. This is one person who won a single age-based event. When you consider the number of events multiplied by the number of age categories, it's one out of dozens of possible winners. Not exactly a "huge setback". The vast majority of cis gendered female athletes aren't being "knocked off the podium". If it turns into, say, 10 trans females winning across all the events and age categories, then maybe there's an issue.
Seriously, a lot of you guys are so quick to denounce something just because it seems weird to you that you don't stop to think a little.
#17
Non omnino gravis
On the simplest level:
"Men are physically stronger than women, who have, on average, less total muscle mass, both in absolute terms and relative to total body mass. Men also have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments. Men have greater cardiovascular reserve, with larger hearts, greater lung volume per body mass, a higher red blood cell count, and higher haemoglobin."
So no advantage whatsoever, right? Athletes regularly take drugs to get things like, I dunno, greater muscle mass or increased RBC count. So even if you want to allow it and think allowing trans athletes into women's events is totally fine, McKinnon is basically doped.
"Men are physically stronger than women, who have, on average, less total muscle mass, both in absolute terms and relative to total body mass. Men also have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments. Men have greater cardiovascular reserve, with larger hearts, greater lung volume per body mass, a higher red blood cell count, and higher haemoglobin."
So no advantage whatsoever, right? Athletes regularly take drugs to get things like, I dunno, greater muscle mass or increased RBC count. So even if you want to allow it and think allowing trans athletes into women's events is totally fine, McKinnon is basically doped.
#18
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True enough, and not every man nor every women has the physical ability to be a world champion,
But if we are going to classify the biological differences between men and women as just natural variation, then there is no justification at all to have separate competitions for men and women. Just do away with it all, as well as Title IX.
But if we are going to classify the biological differences between men and women as just natural variation, then there is no justification at all to have separate competitions for men and women. Just do away with it all, as well as Title IX.
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In before this thread gets moved to P&R
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On the simplest level:
"Men are physically stronger than women, who have, on average, less total muscle mass, both in absolute terms and relative to total body mass. Men also have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments. Men have greater cardiovascular reserve, with larger hearts, greater lung volume per body mass, a higher red blood cell count, and higher haemoglobin."
So no advantage whatsoever, right? Athletes regularly take drugs to get things like, I dunno, greater muscle mass or increased RBC count. So even if you want to allow it and think allowing trans athletes into women's events is totally fine, McKinnon is basically doped.
"Men are physically stronger than women, who have, on average, less total muscle mass, both in absolute terms and relative to total body mass. Men also have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments. Men have greater cardiovascular reserve, with larger hearts, greater lung volume per body mass, a higher red blood cell count, and higher haemoglobin."
So no advantage whatsoever, right? Athletes regularly take drugs to get things like, I dunno, greater muscle mass or increased RBC count. So even if you want to allow it and think allowing trans athletes into women's events is totally fine, McKinnon is basically doped.
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True enough, and not every man nor every women has the physical ability to be a world champion,
But if we are going to classify the biological differences between men and women as just natural variation, then there is no justification at all to have separate competitions for men and women. Just do away with it all, as well as Title IX.
But, IMO at least, having a slight degree of unfairness is better overall for society than having no women at the highest level of sport.
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And this is why I love American Ninja Warrior. One class. One competition. One course. Whoever wins is just awesome, capable, & inspirational. This to me embodies the spirit of sports & competition.
Women compete & win in ANW and they earn the respect on even terms.
Why cheapen women and their efforts by embracing a "seperate but equal" philosophy unless you believe they are not equal or as capable? I for one, know plenty of women who are both superior & more capable than myself. There's no sense in devaluing their accomplishment by the addition of "well, for a girl."
Women compete & win in ANW and they earn the respect on even terms.
Why cheapen women and their efforts by embracing a "seperate but equal" philosophy unless you believe they are not equal or as capable? I for one, know plenty of women who are both superior & more capable than myself. There's no sense in devaluing their accomplishment by the addition of "well, for a girl."
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Bullsh*t. Born male is male, despite what anyone says to the contrary. Not behaving male does not make a male into a female. Male and female is biological, determined in the womb.
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#24
Non omnino gravis
I'm not talking about this philosophically-- if you put up a full-body X-ray of McKinnon and showed it to any doctor with the question, "Male or female?" You'd get one answer. For while psychologically-- that is, identifying as female, all the bits and pieces inside are... a guy.
You can't just "undo" that stuff.
You can't just "undo" that stuff.
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I'm not talking about this philosophically-- if you put up a full-body X-ray of McKinnon and showed it to any doctor with the question, "Male or female?" You'd get one answer. For while psychologically-- that is, identifying as female, all the bits and pieces inside are... a guy.