BTinNYC 

Last week was solid, 12 hrs in the saddle with good workouts plus volume.

TMonk

Wet outside in San Diego this morning, so I did some Zwift racing. Tour de Watopia "short stage" on Volcano climb, about 30 min in total. 500 starters, ended up 3rd overall. A group of 50 or so formed and didn't really select over the punchy short climbs on the route, so we went to the volcano climb mostly together. Two riders had been OTF since the Italian Villa area, crazy. Behind them, only 4 of us crested the Volcano climb together. I won the sprint for third once we got back to town.

After that, I went to FF reverse and rode the segment in ~9:30 at 4.5 w/kg with a TT bike, and still got 10th! Some fast times out there today.

TMonk

Another morning, another Tour de Watopia ride, another 3rd place. "Out and back" route this time, a bit longer (close to an hour). Things got spicy again up the volcano climb and then there was more selection over KOM Reverse. Each time, a small elite group of ~4 including (purportedly) former WT pro Joaquim Rodriquez broke away, but the combined firepower in the chase group means we caught them each time.

I actually thought I was going to win as well since I was in the lead with like 50 m to go, but I got caught and passed by two riders right at the line. Damn!

himespau 

Last weekend, I was doing one of those in a group with someone who was supposedly Mark Cavendish (had the icon on the rider list indicated pro tour rider and all that). I felt a little less bad when the pack dropped me going up a climb as he was leading. Honestly, I'm kind of glad they did drop me because it was in the plan for it to be a Z2 ride, but something about keeping up with Cavendish (even though it was at most Z2 for him) kept me going well above my planned power. Got dropped and started riding where I was supposed to be.

TMonk

Ha, I feel ya. I've attempted to drop into a "Tour de X" ride with the intention of staying Z2, with moderate success. You think you can just resign yourself to a slower gruppetto, but there is always that urge to bridge or join a faster group. Also, there will be others in your group who are going at their actual race pace, and might want to push the pace over parts of the course that offer a chance for selection. Certainly not the same as riding with a steady Pace Partner, or advertised group ride that is based on time. If an event has a finish line (distance based), it is always a race on some level.

Hermes

Planned to workout at San Diego Velodrome Thursday morning. The weather was misty, wet, cold and windy so I converted the track workout to an indoor trainer equivalent. The workout was hard and then I saddled up the road bike and went outside and did some jumps/starts on my road bike.

I do not know how you Zwift guys do it. I am 120 watts differential between my 30 second power indoors versus outdoors and I have checked the Tacx power meter with my TT bike crank power and my Garmin Vector power pedals and the power reads the same on all meters.

I do okay outdoors but inside I would have to ride/race with the F minus group.

TMonk

Hermes I find that at longer efforts where the contribution is mostly aerobic, there is little to no difference in my indoor/outdoor power. At the short end of the stick, like 30 seconds or less, yeah I make way more power outside. I think most people do. It's in between where it's more of a gray area. My power numbers from 2 - 20 minutes are all better outside, but IDK how much of that is motivation either. Much longer than that, and I'm the same indoors.

Hermes

My training has been attending weekly track sessions at Velo Sports Center. But yet another Tues/Thurs session this week. Mostly pursuit training focusing on drills to increase power and cadence as well as control lap speed - too complicated to write up.

Via my locate gym membership, I have access to a new gym in OC that has a basketball court. I tried a couple of shots yesterday and it was a horror show. I made a couple of baskets but everything felt wrong. The ball felt light and my distance and direction control looked like I was playing a different game. It has been decades since I shot baskets or dribbled a ball. At least I was able to launch the ball in the general direction of the basket.

Phatman

So do you guys have an SOP for when you "fail" a workout?

I had a 4x8 interval set planned yesterday and 6 minutes into the second interval I looked down and I was doing 212W at 100 RPE, which is some 90 watts off the planned intensity. Thirty seconds later, I bailed on it. For some reason though I decided that I should at least spend an hour on the bike since that's what I had allotted for the workout and even took the gravel road way home, which totally sucked. Its been a while since I've wanted to get off the bike this badly.

In hindsight, a number of factors conspired against me and I should've seen them before I started, but enh. There's always next week.

Hermes

I complete the workout unless there is an injury. Feeling bad is not a reason to quit and lower power is a meh.

Warning...Anecdote. A junior racer was assigned to the fast group at the track training. He rolls off the track, cooked, red face and etc. He rolls up to the coach and starts to say something and the coach says, "I think you should get back out there." Junior accelerates and turns himself inside out to get back in. I only heard this because I was sitting on the apron waiting for my turn on the track.

Without third party coaching one can decide to do whatever one is able to talk oneself into and justify it. Why not?

Phatman

Interesting. Maybe I should've just finished it at 100 RPE, power be damned. I do think that half of the point of doing intervals is to get you used to the pain, so I guess even if I'm not improving the area of fitness I'm trying to improve I'm getting the pain acclimatization in.

topflightpro

There is a theory that it is better to do something poorly* than not do it at all. So, if you are not able to complete the full interval, it's better to do as much as you can, and then try the next one than to give up.

I routinely fail to complete my full interval effort, but I still go through the process of trying to complete each one.

*Caveat - in cases where doing something poorly - such as poor form - will lead to injury, it's best not to do it.

TMonk

I agree with that in theory and in practice (mostly); something is better than nothing. But, I'd like to offer examples some conflicting advice I was offered from my coach recently.

He said that if I was unable to keep my HR and power in zone towards the end of a VO2 max workout, that I should just stop and save it for the next workout. If my effort wasn't truly anaerobic, that I wouldn't be getting the intended adaptations from my training.

I think some added context to the above ethos is warranted. At the time, he wanted me to do a truly polarized block periodization, where I was riding (for a few weeks) at ONLY z2 or z5 intensity in my training. He looked at my power curve and training history and saw VO2 power as something that could use improvement. He said with an athlete at my level and with my experience, if I wanted to move the fitness needle in a meaningful way, that I needed to truly focus on a specific energy system, which he identified as VO2 max.

Historically I had been doing a little bit of everything, as many roadies do, so my instruction was to ride 60+ minutes of VO2 level intervals per week (over three workouts), long endurance solo z2, or easy for warmup/cooldown, and nothing else. Truth be told, I probably ended nearly half of the workouts with 19-19.5 minutes of Z5 (instead of 20), bailing on the last interval, but I told myself that it was in the interest of longevity, and in optimizing my energies towards riding VO2, instead if trudging through the intervals at high z4 and adding fatigue.

I def. had some "all work and no play" vibes towards the end of the block, since I was doing 0 racing and 0 group rides during this time (late Feb to March). No fun in other words. Workouts were somewhat dreadful, but I was motivated to get fit. It certainly did make a meaningful impact in my fitness and my confidence, and I was able to get a win and a third in breakaway situations with high quality elite Master's fields in SoCal when I came out of it, in my A level events.

TMonk

On that note, I have a "gran fondo" type event in the late season I want to peak for (don't laugh) - Tour of Big Bear, 100 miles at elevation with climbing. In the two months leading up, I will do another base block and VO2 block again. I love MTB'ing up there, staying in rental cabins with friends and family and just being up in the mountain air. And I have never done this event! There are two major climbs in the last 1/3 of the race, so my plan is to be fit enough to stay with the leaders (Phil Gaimon etc) over the flats and minor climbs until then, and then switch my effort internal and ride the best long climbs that I can to a high placing.

Between now and then, it's racing, training and having fun! In ways, almost making a point to not ride too many miles/hours per week so my TSS can come down a bit. Maybe some camping or hiking on weekends between races.

procrit

I have my first race in 13+ years this weekend. I'm honestly not ready, but I have to start somewhere and I'm not getting any younger! I did a 20' test last week and managed to hit the 300w I was aiming for, but it still feels pretty weak overall. With 10% more watts and 10% less weight my W/kg might actually be respectable enough to actually race in my actual category!

procrit

25 mile group ride last night, and my legs got ripped to shreds. Durability is a major issue. I need some long rides and focused intervals, instead of this 60-90 min zone 2 stuff. It simply doesn’t cut it…

Hermes

I think the zone 2 thing is out of hand. We are not doing much endurance training and in fact, we are told to specifically limit endurance and focus on power intervals and recovery. Our guys are doing well at mass start races locally and in Europe.

For me, power versus intervals versus longer z2/FTP training seem to float all boats i.e. I get increased endurance and FTP by power intervals. Granted, if the event is beyond my endurance capability (hours of duration), then I am in trouble but if the event is within the limits of what I am interested in then, I am riding really well.

TMonk

On the flip side, I am taking a short day at work so I can kick off for a 5 hour ride at lunch, and skipping track racing tonight. Granted, I am more road-focused and have been performing well in multi-hour road races, or breakaways that form early in criteriums.

If I was more focused on track or performance in sprints, I would certainly need to change up my training, cause man I just get smoked on the track during sprint laps. Some of these guys just have so much more muscle than my 145 lbs frame. I did well last week by riding about 20 laps of a 48 lap points race off the front with one other rider. We mopped up quite a bit of the points and traded off for 1st and 2nd every other sprint lap during our move.

As I've aged (race age 37), my top-end has certainly suffered, but I don't really train it either, or anything else really under about 3 minutes in duration. Fortunately, my aerobic engine is still very good (just as good?) and I am staying lean and healthy.

procrit

Could you give me an example of what you mean by power intervals?

hubcyclist

my A race (and only road race for the year) is on May 20, so the work is done, we'll see if the training pays off. I am super fit, the only real issue is the w/kg on the main climb on the 3 laps, last year I lost contact with the front group of 8 on the second lap, so I need to stick around a bit longer.

what's almost a bigger deal is my annual fast solo century attempt, aiming for June 10. The last two years I've done it sub 5hrs, I'm really wanting to get 4:45. According to modeling on mywindsock (which, in my view, is more accurate than bestbikesplits), I'll stand a pretty good chance if I avg 240, for me that's 80% and I've done 78-80% in the past for 5hrs. I've done 3x50 @ 250 over 3.5hrs and that's really doable, but don't want to push my luck and go too hot at 250 and fade big time at the end. next few weeks will involve long steady efforts at my pace to be sure i'm dialed in

Hermes

IMO, looking at individual intervals or efforts does not mean much. My training is a series of build sequences. They are endurance, threshold and power. As I enter the final phase of the build sequence, power, endurance time drops and shorter max power intervals increase as well as recovery. I get a lot of choices for workouts that constitute power but only one if I show up at the track as I did last night. And there is always an execution component to the interval. For example, last night, I had a motor windup and then 2 laps solo, but I was using a techniques to increase speed in the straight and a different one in the turns while at high power.

In general, the power effort is 20 to 40 seconds but there is a lead up but sometimes there is not. Another example of a power effort is chase the motor where one approaches a starting point and then the motor accelerates and I chase it at max effort. And we have Zwift, climbing, road and track options for different power workouts.

Power workouts are fun because there is a lot of variation. z2 - ride for 120 minutes non stop. Not easy but meh.

procrit

45’ z2, 45’ sweet spot. Hoping to sneak another workout in tomorrow as the weekend looks like a complete washout.

Hermes

Here is a video from Tuesday nights structured track session. Wind up motor kilos from a rolling start final two laps solo.

Hermes

Thursday's track session was very hard. We divide into two groups - mass start and TT. The mass start group each had a Madison partner and did Madison drills/exchanges off the motor. My TT group did 5 x 2k flying pursuits against a preset timer. The timer beeps and the goal is to be at the same point on the track at each beep. We did the efforts together 5 meters apart. We took turns leading the effort so I lead two efforts and sat in three. Coach starts the timer as we cross the start line. I led on the 5 th effort and made the time.

I was cooked and really did not feel great until Friday afternoon after a nap. Legs feel great this AM

This is considered a power workout although the duration may appear long. However, the windup to get to the top of the track and dive off the banking and hit the start line at the right speed is a power effort (large fixed gear) and the pursuit effort itself is over 140% FTP and it is high cadence in race gears. Recovery between efforts was at least 10 minutes while we waited for the Madison guys to finish.

So the Madison group got 5 x 30 lap Madison efforts and they looked pretty cooked. Great workouts. Who needs racing?

procrit

Todays plan was a “long” zone 2 ride a decent FTP+ effort at the end, but I cut it about 30 mins short because the rain and lightning was making me nervous. Still not bad, 2 hr 40 min. Felt like I had gas in the tank at the end…