gwhunter

Lug work


Brake bridge

juvela

-----


Lugs resemble the Tange copy of the Prugnat 62d.

Note how thick they have been left.

Almost looks like student work...


-----

gwhunter

More pics from the bottom, looks like Brev something on the brake bridge. Paint was laid on pretty thick so I can’t make it out

gwhunter

Bianchigirll 

Welcome to the club.

verktyg 

My first thoughts too! I used some of those Prugnat lugs BITD and they didn't require much thinning. They look like knockoff Prugnat 62Bis short point lugs. The 62d were long point.


Screams Japanese made frame??? They tended to attach the seat stays in the middle of the seat lugs rather than near the top.

verktyg

gwhunter

So maybe a home built maybe ? It looks pretty nice and equipped with some nice high end c-record bits anyway.

Insidious C. 

Look at the location of the relief cut into the top head lug. That looks structurally weak. Whoever built the frame started with plain lugs and added the cutout.

gwhunter

Wow I don’t think that, you must seeing something I can’t see. Oh well

unworthy1

I'm voting for a 'home-built' or student project since it's a mix of what appear to be Italian-sourced bits (the brake-bridge, BB shell, spool-shaped chainstay bridge, etc.) but with the Asian-sourced Prugnat copy lugset, you can almost see the maker's mark next to "G3" on the underside of lug pic. It's possibly an Asian build that used Italian tubing and bits (thinking of something LIKE a Centurion-Cinelli Equpe or the ones Nishiki and Miyata sold) but AFAIK it doesn't check any of THOSE boxes for a match.
I'd sure want to know the dropouts and forkend brand, plus pull the fork to see ant steerer marking and if there's "rifling" in the steerer base.

gwhunter

Ok more puzzle pieces, rear drops are Campagnolo, and fork tips have the Columbus Dove, plus rifling steerer tube, no other marking that I can see.

Doug Fattic 

A possibility is Miele made in Toronto? When they went bust in '95 there was an auction of their left over frame materials and a variety of already built frames. I got some of that stuff. They used a variety of frame materials on their different frame models that included some of what I see in those pictures. For example I have a stash of those exact bottom bracket shells. Mine are Italian threading. They make great practice shells for my frame building class students before they do it for real.

JohnDThompson 

I think I see five ribs in the steer tube, but I can't tell if they're helical or straight. Helical ribs would suggest Columbus; straight ribs would suggest Ishiwata.

Tange also used helical ribs, but six rather than five.

thumpism 

Serotta used that brake bridge and chainstay bridge.

JohnDThompson 

Yeah, they were fairly widely available. Silva still offers them:


Bridges

gwhunter

It has five helical or “spiral”

gwhunter

the chain stays go from being round shape to diamond shape about 8” before going into the BB shell. Really cool looking in my opinion. Don’t know if they can be made out in the pic. I’ve never seen any shaped this way

AngryFrankie

Nice bike! BB threads will settle if it's Italian or not. The lugs don't look highly worked, so I'd guess a big shop that did lots of frames (Fuji, Panasonic, Torpado, etc..). The "59" looks about right for the size, so if that's what it refers to, probably not a one-off student/home builder. If those ridges run up into the fork steerer, probably SLX, which helps to date it. Anyway, looks really nice.

unworthy1

It's getting INteresting! That's proabably Columbus rifling which does not by itself indicate SLX (or later TSX) but could be SL/SP or later,,,and with Campy dropouts and the Columbus-branded forkends it's making the waters muddier. I think there were certain Italian marques that shaped their chainstays like that but I am not confident to state which ones those were. Plus it's still not conclusive that all of this has yet to add up to a certain match with a known brand.I think the jury is still out, so... I will light up the Bat-Signal for @MauriceMoss

cudak888 

The home-drilled Prugnatish holes in the lugs without filing and the brake bridge with the casted-in patent markings not filled in all makes me think the same thing that many others have suggested here - home-brew or apprentice-built frame.

It's nice, looks like it was thought out well by someone new to the game, but finished a little quickly. Pretty long top tube, from the looks of it.

-Kurt

Doug Fattic 

One of the best ways to identify a frame is the detail work around the dropouts. A closeup picture of the way the stay ends are finished off as well as how any filing was done on the edge of the dropouts can point towards either a particular maker or eliminate a candidate. Miele for example almost always finished off their dropouts in a certain way and a picture can either confirm or deny if they were the manufacturer.

gwhunter

Dropout pics

Doug Fattic 

Thanks for posting the dropout pics. While I can't identify the builder from them, they do eliminate some possibilities and give some indication more skilled care was used in their assembly. I know for sure it this is not a Miele frame because they used a different treatment joining the stays to the dropouts. The inside and outside edges of the dropouts were smoothed with a file. Production made frames can leave off this detailing. Sometimes the outside is rounded but in this case they were squared (an additional clue). Another interesting detail is that the stays were slotted before assembly (which isn't always the case) requiring a bit more work. The builder didn't dig into the dropout creating the concave shape on the end with either a file or using the end of a hand held belt sander (like a Dynafile) that is common for rookie builders.

Another reason I'm doubtful this is a student made frame is because the lugs don't look like they were touched with a file (although on the other hand some schools don't teach that) and the shorelines are pretty clean indicating a more experienced brazer. If there was only one maker I would think they would have used their files some on the lugs like they did on the dropouts. On an assembly line process the guy doing the dropouts is probably different than the guy finishing the whole frame before painting.

Last ride 76 

I'm not a builder, nor 2% as experienced as Doug, but lug details were my thing, and I agree that it's likely to be a production bike, on which the lug filing got skipped for whatever reason. The rest of the work, (esp. rear dropout connection), and the frame components are too high up the scale to be a one off student thing. Very unusual, though the reason behind the lack of lug filing, could be just about anything.
Eric

seypat

Tange Prestige fork for reference.