carleton

Yeah, I think you are right.

Yeah...that's the annoying part.

I don't rule anything. I'm just a user that has been promoted to moderator in order to keep the boards clean of spam and whatnot. I don't have any more "powers" or "authority" than anyone else here.

Baby Puke

I chuckled there for a minute. Joseph has been in it long enough now that he doesn't need to analyze the **** out of everything and try to think up the training gimmick nobody has thought up yet (remember the backwards down the hill big-gear efforts to activate the eccentric on the bike??). Now he does meat and potatoes sprint workouts like everyone else, and he's going pretty damn fast now, too.

This guy will probably come to that kind of thing eventually as well.

brawlo

Hang on! Joseph isn't that old haha

I think this thread can have merit, if we look at the many ways to skin a cat philosophy and discuss those ways that you skin your particular cat.

I think DHRB45 is in a place that pretty much everyone that has been riding and racing for a number of years has been in. When you find track racing, race and ride ride ride for a few years and then come to an understanding of where your core talent lies. From there you have a yearning to find out and understand every single thing you can about that discipline. I think most riders would freely admit, if they thought about it, that they would not be swayed by the discussion that is going on here. I was in that place a few years ago myself. It's like being a teenager all over again. Adults (seasoned riders) telling you what is the right way to do stuff, but you just want to go out there and make your own mistakes anyway. Later on you develop an understanding of just how ridiculous it can be to focus on tiny incremental gains (insert chain lube discussion here) when you need gains of tenths if not full seconds. It's just one of those 'rights of passage' of cycling. For myself, it was scouring through FGF and here seeking all the information I could get my hands on. In fact I would hazard a guess that if FGF were still active, this discussion would not be happening. There was a wealth of info in that forum that was at your fingertips with the help of the search function.

So, why don't we discuss how we all 'skin our cats'?

In my limited experience when compared to many other riders, I have noted that coaching as a general rule is not the be all and end all answer. The vast majority of coaches are not all that flexible in their coaching style. Most coaches can get a newish rider significant improvements, but unless they are lucky and the rider responds well to their particular style, then at some point their rider will plateau and won't be able to improve. Most of the time, I believe, the rider needs to seek out a different coaching style. But what style does the rider seek out? Once you've sampled being coached, you can usually have the discipline to try different things and make an assessment on what style of training suits you in particular. From there you can seek out a coach that should suit you better.

Divulging how you train is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, in the end that method may not suit another rider well at all. The method may not fit in with the daily life of the rider. Most masters riders just wouldn't be able to train like some young guy that is in college and has all the time in the world.

Let's also discuss what training you have tried that hasn't suited you well. This also helps newer riders to see that it in fact is a true voyage of discovery to find that training method that suits you. We can all be rather specific without giving away too much detail. Let the real specifics fall in the hands of a good coach. Perhaps even (this could be a dangerous one though) we could throw a few coach names around and their coaching style. No badmouthing though as a coach that hasn't given you success may well coach another rider to national or world champion level if their style suits.

brawlo

So here's my take to get the ball rolling.

When I decided I wanted to concentrate on sprinting after a few years on the bike, I found UpUpUp. I went through the motions of the weights and the trainer drills all while continuing to ride club road races. After a year of that, I engaged a coach. We went down a similar path and it was kind of self satisfying that I was on the right path with what I had mapped out for myself. Heavy weights, squatting and deadlifts etc, and a bunch of work on the bike/trainer/rollers. After a bit less than a year on that program, I wasn't a whole lot faster than I was at the start of the whole coaching thing. Looking back, I think it was a volume issue. Anyhow, I went to state titles and rode myself into a silver sprint medal. I was happy with that, but there wasn't a lot of competition. I also sat there watching the MMAS3 & 4 riders. The competition in those divisions was much thicker and it was a bit of an off putting moment to watch a number of guys not qualify for the match sprints.

So from there, I decided to change focus. We can do a lot of track carnivals over here, with lots of scratch and handicap races of varying lengths. I enjoy those and I also have my daughter racing, so I decided to look at kilo type training rather than sprint specific stuff. I thought I'd get slower at sprinting. So I maintained contact with the strength and conditioning guy that the coach used and we went to higher 6-10 rep weights, less weight and more dynamic stuff with a bit of plyo thrown in for good measure. On the bike I did my own thing, riding the harder weekend bunch ride, doing kilo trainer drills from UpUpUp and racing on track and road summer races that are only 20-25km. I worked my way into racing club road B grade. One other important change I made though was a move to larger gears. I race pretty much the entire track season on a 102 gear, from sprint stuff right through to 8km scratch races. From the start of the season where I did a f200 time equal to the previous year's best, I dropped 0.5s by the time we did the club sprint champs around Christmas. I couldn't believe I had gotten significantly better in my sprinting from the change of training, and it was my bingo moment. I'm not a lift big weights guy, they don't suit me on the bike, even though I was lifting very heavy weights when I was back at uni. This season isn't far from starting. I've been doing more on the bike work this winter and we have a few newer strong riders in my MMAS2 age bracket, so I've got a renewed interest in the sprint thing. I'm still not sure where I'll go, but I haven't engaged any coaches yet either.

gtrob

except...

carleton

WhatsYoCadence

Sometimes I'll go to the park which has a 3.3 mile lap distance and I'll do one full lap as hard as I can and not let myself quit.

carleton

Please be careful.

Riding your bike as fast as you can in a public area like a park can have bad endings. All it takes is a group of people walking 4-across, a group of kids, or a pet on a leash to ruin everyone's day.

WhatsYoCadence

Yeah, I know.. Unfortunately I figured this out twice this year already. One was a racoon crossing, and one was a skateboarder going down the hill you're supposed to go up. There's nowhere else I can go train really. Maybe I'll move to Eu and live near a sexy velodrome.

carleton

Or...hear me out...or you can buy a home trainer for all-out efforts

Save the trail/park riding for fat burning or recovery rides.

Dalai

Australia is the place for sexy velodromes...

Dalai

Plus none of that white nonsense to get in the way or training and racing year round.

WhatsYoCadence

You know.. I had one and absolutely HATED it. I would get so depressed on it. I put maybe 50 miles on it and hated every second. It literally turned me off from cycling.. I had to recover.

carleton

The bike trainer is no different than a gym. You can make it what you want. It's an effective training tool.

Staring at a wall is no fun. I will do longer rides on it and watch movies on Netflix. I'll also watch shows as I do hard 30s or 1min efforts and watch Netflix as I spin down and as I sit and rest between efforts.

Also, the higher quality trainers with heavy flywheels feel better and improve the experience.

I know guys who are like, "All indoor trainers are rubbish and I'll never ride one again...". But, I really think they've been riding bad trainers. And there are a LOT of bad trainers out there. I can honestly say that most of them are pretty bad.

Do the longer rides outdoors. But those usually don't have hard efforts. A truly maximal effort in the middle of a 3hr ride will ruin your day.

gtrob

I found the opposite. If I distracted myself with TV, I stopped working hard and ending up cruising at 150w (which if you are a base miles zone 2 goal, maybe thats fine). I had to turn off the TV and focus on the suffer to get anything out of it.

I am a trainer hater, but I also have 2 of the 4 indoor tracks in north america within an hour from me. I know some guys that ride the trainer in the summer as its simply a better place to train sometimes (controlled environment)

Baby Puke

If you do specific stuff on the trainer it's not too bad. But if you just get on a "ride", yeah that's gonna suck. Check out the Up! Up! Up! page for some specific trainer stuff that will kick your ass and won't be boring.

Dalai

More of Carl's training sessions held at my club Wednesday nights through winter - with Sprint and Endurance training streams - 2015 Winter ? aboc Cycle Coaching

Velocirapture

I REALLY have to psych myself up to get on the trainer.. because of that trainer-soul-destroyer factor, as well as the fact that my trainer sessions are supposed be those ass-kicking hell-hole ones. Somehow its the combination does my head in.

That said, those sessions have given me some of the best gains-for-time of any of my training

carleton

Maybe I'm the odd man out. I'm OK with training on a trainer.

Yes.

Think about it. In order to ride the track (even here in Atlanta) I have to:

- Get dressed in cycling kit
- Pack up my gear
- Load the bike and gear into the car
- Drive for 30 minutes (assuming traffic is light)
- Unload the gear
- Setup the bike (put on chainring, pump tires, etc...
- Train
- Load the bike and gear into the car
- Drive for 30 minutes (assuming traffic is light)
- Unload the gear.
- Shower

In order to do a trainer workout (I use a Cycleops Spin Bike), I have to:

- Get dressed in cycling kit (usually just shorts, no top necessary)
- Pick a movie/show on Netflix.
- Train
- Shower

I don't have to worry about weather or if the track is damp or has pollen on it.

Maybe it's a state of mind thing. If I dread trainer workouts, then I will dread them. If I don't, I won't.

carleton

I've always said that, "Your legs don't know if you are on a track or on a trainer." Take advantage of that fact.

Only your mind knows. You should be able to handle that. "No man is free who is not master of himself" -Epictetus

Velocirapture

Indeed, Zen master, you speak truth!

Since i ride for fun and not for finance, we reach a conundrum - handling the mind, and getting the body onto the trainer accordingly, is one thing. Having fun while on there is a path i still need to find the entrance to!

carleton

Ha!

taras0000

Yeah, because nipple chafing is a real *****

DHRB45

He returned. Perhaps a little wiser; mildly chastened perhaps and, in any event. determined not to (annoy people) by way of expressing too much enthusiasm by asking too many questions. Oh, and still real interested in "How to develop Devastating Power".

There is much to learn ..

carleton

Dude, chill.

Repeatedly bumping your thread for more info is frowned-upon in any forum.

Everyone who is going to see this thread has already seen it.

If your topic is worthy of comment, then people will comment. If not, then they won't. If you keep bumping this thread asking for input, I will lock it.