veganbikes

Those liners are rather terrible. There are plenty of good puncture protectant tires. Also if you keep everything properly inflated and replace tires (and your tubes and rim strips) when needed you are generally OK. That is the big key is proper inflation and not riding like an oaf through glass and potholes. Anything inside a tire/tube that can easily shift can cause flats and those liners are a good example of that.

If you are really worried then go tubeless. It isn't so bad if you have the right combination. I had a customer who had Maxxis tires on Stans rims and they sealed right up first try no problem and the three others he brought me of the same were not different at all. I rarely see major problems if you do as event_horizon does and top off when needed. Also with a lot of the new stuff you can inflate with a hand pump or just give your local shop a little money and they can do all the work for you. Of course when you get a flat the sealant can't seal you will want a tube in there and probably stuff a dollar bill or clif bar wrapper or something to cover the hole.

veganbikes

That was more what I was referring to. If you can plug it, that is the way but the big gashes are a bit harder but are also a pain on any tire.

BobbyG

I thought red is strawberry and black is licorice.

cyccommute 

You do realize that you put sealant in by weight don't you? A Tuffy liner for a 700x32 tire weighs in at 52g a pair. That's 1.8 oz. You put in 2 oz of sealant per tire.

Nice insult there. Sad to say that I've had enough experience with sealants to say that even with a lot of bike related skills, you can expect to make a lot of mess with the stuff. If you break the bead to put in sealant, you'll have it spraying all over as you try to reseat the tire. If you go through the valve, you'll have plenty of leakage that has to be cleaned up. Every time someone comes into my co-op to mount a tubeless tire, all the volunteer cringe because we know there will be sealant everywhere.

And all of us dread having to deal with a Slime tube of any kind. We really dread someone not getting the tire seated right and blowing out the tube. It's happened. It's not pretty.

Yep. Has to be "topped" off regularly. That's a hassle. And the trick is to know when that "sometimes much longer, sometimes sooner" is. If you get it wrong, you are dealing with fixing a flat on a tubeless tire which isn't something that is all that easy to do on the road. Who carries tubeless plugs with them?

You also have to ask where does that sealant go? It's sealed in a tire that is should be impermeable to liquids. If air is sealed in the tire, the sealant should be sealed as well. But it isn't since you have to "top it up" regularly. The sealant can't simply go away, either...there's a little law in chemistry called Conservation of Mass. The liquid used for tubeless sealants is mostly propylene glycol. Propylene glycol has a high boiling point and a low vapor pressure. That means that it doesn't evaporate all that well. You aren't losing the sealant, it's simply dissolving into the rubber. You can even find pictures of sealant bubbles on the outside of tires.

Now here's the mind bending part: If liquid of the sealant is dissolving into the rubber and the liquid isn't evaporating, the weight of the tire is increasing. Each time you "top it up", you are adding to the weight of the tire. Circling back to the "Tuffys are heavy and sealant isn't" argument, Tuffys don't gain weight over time. Tires with sealant do. Now which system is "heavy"?

cyccommute 

While I agree that many tires come with their own protection now...just Tuffys under the tread...and that they work well, the liners aren't all that bad. I've been using them for a very long time to good effect. I don't notice them as being particularly heavy nor the ride as being dead. I don't even find them to cause flats due to chafing of the tube all that often. On the positive side, Tuffys are a bit more environmentally sound than integrated liners because they are multiple use as opposed to a single use like the integrated ones are. A set of Tuffys can be used for decades without problems in multiple...perhaps hundreds...of tires.

While I agree with not riding like an oaf, I disagree with the "proper inflation" part. On a tubed tire, proper inflation will prevent pinch flats...and rim damage for tubeless..., there is no pressure value (high, low or in between) that you can run that will prevent a puncture. People say this all the time but give a value if you think there is one that will prevent a sharp object from penetrating the outside of a tire and letting the air out. Yes, avoid running over sharp objects but you can't always see those objects.

cyccommute 

Fluid ounces isn't any different from dry ounces. The 52 grams for a set of liners is 1.8 ounces or 0.9oz per wheel. A light tube and liner are only slightly heavier than 2 oz of sealant. You said that liners are "heavy". They aren't.

Yep. I have limited experience with tubeless and I'm thankful for it. Every time I have had to deal with them, I am more thankful...including helping someone seat a tire this past weekend. There was more sealant on the floor, on the tire, on the benches and all over my legs than in the tire. And we emptied a 100 gallon compressor at least once. Thanks but I'll stay thankful for my limited tubeless experience.

The problems are when do you check them, and how do you know if the latex has just agglomerated? The dipstick only tells you if you have fluid or not. It doesn't tell you the state of the fluid. And how do you work temperature fluctuations into that equation? Do you check it daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly?

This brings up an entirely different issue. Tubeless plugs seem to be a rather new phenomena. Tubeless has been around for more than 10 years and I've only recently seen tubeless plugs being advertised. But the real question is why would you need plugs. Stan's NoTubes says Do you have any idea how large a 1/4" hole is? It's 6mm (for the SAE challenged) or thicker than brake cable housing. A 16 penny nail, which is a very large nail, is only 0.165" in diameter and is fairly easy to see and avoid. Being able to seal a 1/4" hole should seal anything you might ride over on the worst roads. There should be any reason to need anything else to seal a flat.

Or are you saying that Stan's doesn't work like they say it does?


Really?! Are you really trying to say that tires are so poorly made that there are holes in the casing? Tires of any kind are made by injecting rubber into a mold. The rubber fills the mold and cures. It's slightly permeable to gasses but only slightly and becomes less permeable with thickness. If a tire is collecting liquid on the outside of the casing, it's not because the sealant passing through (nonexistant) holes but because the liquid is dissolving through the tire.

One test of unspecified method or parameters does not a refutation make. How much wear? How long? Did he track the amount of sealant used? How many changes of sealant? Etc.

It's okay to say that you don't know something. But it's not valid to say that just because you don't know something that your point is proven. The liquid of the sealant has to go somewhere. Hypotheses that I seen like "it's lost to punctures" or "it's lost to burping" don't begin to explain it. Do people really get enough punctures to completely lose all the sealant, especially for something that is supposed to be sealed "instantly" (Stan's words)? I don't get that many punctures and I get my fair share of them. If a tire "burps" that's the equivalent of a blowout and, in my experience, a blowout seldom seals itself. Tires lose the sealant if they are just sitting around unridden, which is why shops don't put bikes with tubeless tires on the showroom floor.

I'm willing to say that I don't know if all of the material remains in the tires but it has to go somewhere. I also know a thing or two about chemistry and can say with confidence that the glycol isn't evaporating. It goes somewhere and if that somewhere isn't into the air, it's in the tire.

Maelochs

Right ... because we all go out of our way to hit things that will puncture our tires ... right? If you don't want flats ... just don't get any. It's simple.

I don't care if people choose tubeless or liners or whichever .... but I know from experience you don't just casually plug a tire mid-ride (no one I have ever ridden with has ever brought the tools---why bother, they have sealant? ) And I know from experience that a lot of tubeless tires are a Tight fit ... and a bear to get off the rim.

I have tried a couple brands of liners. I am satisfied. I don't care what others like better.

I do sort of wonder why people tell lies about stuff though ... if you like tubeless better than liners, say so. That's cool. Some people like CO2 better than pumps ... but will sure borrow a pump if they used their last cartridge. But all this ranting about how terrible liners are .... Do your fellow riders a favor and don't spread disinformation. Every system has drawbacks and strengths, and listing those honestly is all readers want. Exaggerating about them does a disservice to all of us and is dishonorable.

base2 

Bicycle tires are so over-rated. Real cyclists shun all the unnecessary hundreds of grams and unnecessary friction of rubber all together.

It's been scientifically proven that a bare rim has the lowest rolling resistance of all.

Ever seen a train wheel get a flat? I didn't think so.

Maelochs

Let me restate: “I know from experience you don't just casually plug a tire mid-ride (no one I have ever ridden with has ever brought the tools---why bother, they have sealant?”

You say you patch tubeless tires on the ride. Great. I take it from later comments that you ride off-road---perhaps in that arena flats are more prevalent and tire=patching needs to be done.

I said I had never seen it—and no one else here has said that they have either.

Further: “I know from experience that a lot of tubeless tires are a Tight fit ... and a bear to get off the rim.”

I said this. I mean it. And a lot of other people have said the same thing.

I assume that most people posting here ride road bikes---based on their sigs and their comments. Perhaps some off-road tires fit more loosely. Perhaps only some do, which is what you say----which means the others are tight. As for tires on hookless rims—perhaps in Some situations some come off more easily. However, again supported by the experience of most posters here, tubeless tires are a tighter fit than most tires designed for tubes.

So your experience, while valid (because I choose to believe you) is not dispositive. There are exceptions to most generalities, but the generalities generally hold true.

In any case .... your positive experience with tubeless is interesting. Thank you for sharing it. it doesn't really bear on the question of the utility of rim strips, but in any case, it is interesting.

veganbikes

What disinformation? Tire Liners are terrible, sorry to face the facts but it is something you are putting in your tire that can cause a puncture or abrade a tube or just move around, that just doesn't sound like a good plan. I have seen some flats potentially caused by tire liners not a ton because most people are smart enough to not use them but I see them occasionally here and there.

As I said right after tire liners are terrible, is that there is plenty of great puncture protectant tires. I am sorry but there is no tire liner in the world that is going to be better than just getting a better tire in the first place. Also running wider tires will help and you can get wider tires in great puncture protection quite easily these days.

I will 100% agree that tubeless and tubed systems both have strengths and weaknesses.

Gresp15C

I had a tire liner abrade its way through a tube, but honestly it took several years of totally neglecting the tire due to not having to fix any flats. I used the same liners and tubes while wearing out multiple tires. I think that feathering the ends of the liners would have prevented that problem.

rekmeyata

I know, this is an old post, but people researching infor about liners will stumble across this forum discussion. All the weights I will be describing are for the narrow road version.

So anyway, Mr. Tuffy's liners are a bit on the heavy side, in my opinion, however, they now have Ultra Light liners. The regular Mr. Tuffy's weigh 154 grams for a pair or 77 grams each with a thickness of 1 mm; the newer Mr. Tuffy Ultra lights weigh 105 grams for a pair or 52.5 grams each with a varying thickness from 0.8 to 1 mm due to the ridges. The Ultra Light liners have ridges going down the length of the liner, this is to prevent the liner from squirming as the tire ages. Both versions of Mr. Tuffy are reusable.

Another decent liner made very similar to Mr. Tuffy in the materials it uses but is a bit thicker at 1.20 mm is the RhinoDillos, while it is a thicker liner it weighs 136 grams for the pair or 68 grams each which puts it in about the middle of the road in weight between the Mr. Tuffy regular liner and their Ultra-Lite liner, also reusable.

There is also the Zefal Z liner, this liner is the lightest of the polyurethane liners it weighs 70 grams for the pair or 35 grams each, I could not find a thickness scale but I would assume they are around 0.8mm and these have no ridges.

Finally, there is the Panaracer Flataway liner, these are the lightest at 50 grams for the pair or just 25 grams each, they are about 0.8 mm thick, these are made differently using kevlar instead of some sort of polyurethane as the all the other ones on the market use, this liner is the most expensive and it is NOT reusable you throw it out with the tire when it wears out.

Mr. Tuffy tried to take a dig at Panaracer by claiming that Kevlar doesn't stop pointy objects from separating the threads and hitting the tube as Mr Tuffy does, well if this was true then why do almost all tires made today use Kevlar to prevent flats? The Schwalbe Marathon series all use a polyurethane liner. While no tire is flat-proof neither is no liner flat-proof.

So which is the best? I've used both, and I can't really say! I do know that if you take a pair of scissors and try cutting a poly tape it cuts like butter whereas the Kevlar liner I had to saw it with the scissors and was hurting my hand trying to cut it; I also know that I was able to penetrate a nail tack sort of easily through the poly but the tack bent when I tried to penetrate the kevlar. However, the huge drawback with the Kevlar liner is the cost which you have to keep paying for a new liner every time you replace a tire. The drawback with a poly liner is that the leading edge of the liner over time can rub a hole into an ultralight tube which means ideally you should run a thicker tube which adds even more weight to your wheel-tire combination, supposedly the Rhino liners have a soft edge that prevents that. What I use to have to do with the regular Mr. Tuffy liners is sand the edge of the liner that was going to be in contact with the tube to almost a paper-thin thickness, once I did that I never again got a hole in the tube from the liner edge, I'm not sure if the thinner Ultra-lite and the Zefal liner will cause that same issue. Also, since the Panaracer Flataway is a cloth substance it does have a tiny bit of cushioning effect between the pavement the tire, and the tube, not sure if anyone would notice it though, but Panaracer claims it's there.

I use to use the Mr. Tuffy regular, and still got some flats from Goatheads thorns, I then switched tires from a kevlar belt tire to a Specialized Armadillo All Condition tire and never got a flat again without using any liner, but the Armadillo was using a thicker poly belt in addition to nylon belts. I later still used the Panaracer but I had moved from Goathead valley and wasn't getting flats anyways, however, I use them in my commuter bike's rear tire only to prevent the hassle of fixing a flat back there when trying to get to work or home, but I don't like the idea of replacing them either. So I've decided to add a bit more protection to my touring bike which will be using Schwalbe Marathon Supremes to use a lightweight poly liner since it's replaceable, and then only on the rear tire.

Just some observations and thoughts for anyone interested.

Bill in VA

For the not dead and heavy liners, or the mess of sealant, try a tire saver, a/k/a flint catcher, or tire wiper. I have used them since the first bike boom and they do work.




Disclaimer: No goatheads in the areas I have lived, but glass and metal filings galore.

rekmeyata

The flint catcher if positioned correctly was suppose to just skim the tire with about a millimeter distance between the tire skimmer and the tire, and whether or not they worked is questionable, plus in the rain, they were freaking nightmares. I think the reason you are having success with the skimmer is because todays tires have kevlar belts in them and that is what is warding off your flats, not the skimmer.

I used those things back in the day with cotton or nylon belted tubular tires, I still had to carry 2 spare tires with me because on average I got a flat per ride even with the skimmer! The only reason I used them was that prior to installing them I was averaging a flat a ride...the same as I was using them! So when the clincher folding tire came out from Specialized I stopped using them because I really didn't think there was any benefit. I had a long use with and without the skimmer, about 5 years without them and about 5 years with them.

rsbob 

i used those on my Schwinn Varsity in high school. Haven’t seen those in decades. Always wondered about the drag created.

Used Mr Tuffys for decades and have had lots of flats with them but was riding 3000 or more miles a year too. It got so bad I was wondering why I bothered with them. Then I switched to puncture resistant tires like Gatorskins and threw the Tuffies away.

Wilbur76

Liners are like a necessary evil. They do the job but they make a faint but noticeable thump on every revolution. I think it’s because the liner overlaps itself inside the tire wall so that when it makes ground contact, that overlapped area gives a slight bump in the ride. More noticeable for me on the front tire than the rear. No change even after I swapped tubes and liners around.

Bill in VA

I have never used kevlar belted tires, gatorskins, etc. I started the wipers with cotton and silk tubulars, and kept them when I went to clinchers. I tried a flat resistant tire and hated them. Maybe now they are better, but after using the OEM Vittoria Randaneur touring tires that came with the bike for one day, I bought Conti GP4000SII tires the next day. There should be no pressure on the tire as you said. I have been using wipers with the most recent bike with Conti GP4000SII and Rene Herse ultralight casing 28s and 32s. The only time I know they are there is if I have a tire with a diamond or herringbone tread (which I do not use anymore) and they sometimes will sing. I will use them on dry towpaths, but if it gets mud, I will just bend them up a bit.

If the sharp object is of the type that will penetrate the tube and casing all at once, they would probably not make a difference, but as most of my rare flats, or impending flats where I have seen an object stuck into the tread, but not though the tread, they prevent subsequent rotations from pushing it further in and reaching the tube.

I confess I also like the retro look for the curious.

rekmeyata

Well, you just proved what I said, thank you. The Conti tires you use have a Vectran under the tread; Vectran is a liquid-crystalline polymer that has great puncture resistance. The Rene tires have what they call an Endurance Casing which a very tight weave that greatly reduces punctures. The Conti flat protection is better than what Rene uses but the Rene isn't shabby either in that department.

So really the tires today use far better flat protection than they did back in the day when I was using the skimmer with cotton, nylon, or silk tubular, but I still had to carry two tubulars because the skimmer really didn't work that well, not saying it didn't work at all, but I averaged a flat a ride with or without the skimmer. I think you should test your skimmer and buy a pair of Specialized S Works Cotton Turbo tires, these are only belted with a cotton belt, but even it has a belt of Blackbelt to ward off some punctures, and then ride and see how far you get before a flat occurs. As a side bonus with those Specialized tires you will be rolling on the 3rd lowest rolling resistance tire in the world currently taking a mere 10 watts to propel. I'm not even sure if you find a tire to fit a road bike that doesn't have some sort of flat protection built into it, so the Specialized is probably as close as you're going to get without more than adequate protection.

And those tire wipers were only effective to somewhat of a degree with smooth tires only, tires that any type of pattern to it it wouldn't work at all.

Again, I'm not saying they are useless, but there has always, for as long as I can remember, controversy about whether they worked or not, I'm in the middle, I just don't know because my experience showed that I got as many flats without it as I did with it, so did help me from getting 2 flats on some particular day instead of just 1? I don't know. But I do know I had to carry 2 spare tubs just in case I did get 2 flats in one ride, and I also carried a flat repair kit for tubs just in case I got more than 2 flats on a ride, and that happened to me many times even with the tire wipers. Once I had bought the wipers I kept them on, just in case it did do something.