Rides4Beer

Continental says to finish at the valve, that's how I do mine and never have any issues (not TL, just tires in general, no issues with GP4K and GP5K clinchers). I've never had to use a lever on Conti clinchers, sounds like the TLs are a tighter fit.

igs417

Hi guys, I'm trying to decide between AR46 and AR56, disc brake, DT 350 hubs, CX rays.

Doing mostly solo 80+ mile rides. Rolling terrain, max. 5000 ft elevation gain over 80 mile ride. Not particularly windy, and I don't ride if there is morevthan 25 mph wind anyway. Heavier rider, 83 kg. Endurance bike (Canyon Endurace CF SL). Want to run GP5000 25mm with tubes. Never rode carbon/deep wheels. Currently riding aluminum Ksyrium Elite UST Disc.

AR46 (46mm deep, 21/28mm inner/outer width): depth is closer to general all around definition, GP5000 25mm will be slighty over 105% rule.

AR56 (56mm deep, 23/30mm inner/outer width): spot on 105% rule, but 56 mm depth seems a bit too much.

46 mm depth with 23/30 mm width would be ideal, but no such wheels from Light Bicycle.

What wheelset would you choose and why?

Sy Reene

What are you using as your inflated widths of the GP5Ks? BRR website indicates the GP5Ks 25mm tire inflates to 26mm which would still fall within the 105 rule. You could always choose another tire if you want the 46mm wheels -- eg Specialized in 24mm

noodle soup

I have the 56mm(23mm internal) with DT350 hubs, and Sapim spokes. No complaints after about 5k miles.

Why not tubeless 28mm tires? The ride will be incredibly smooth, and the 105% rule is a joke.

Chi_Z

why is it a joke?

noodle soup

worrying about it is foolish. Ride what is comfortable on the pavement around your area.

Leaa

Those high rims carbon weave of those wheels are looking really slick!

SethAZ 

Have you considered the WR50? They are 30mm wide and 50mm deep. If the 105% "rule" is really important to you, that would still allow you to ride a 28mm tire. I'm actually currently riding 34mm tires on Lightbicycle rims that are only 28 or 29mm wide and it never occurs to me during a ride to wonder how much faster I'd be if only I'd stuck to the 105% rule. Fact is a fatter tire will change your ride way more than the couple watts you'll save by sticking right at the 105% rule. Especially for a long endurance ride, if you haven't tried fatter tires I'd say it will rock your world if you ever do.

If we assume that a tire/rim combo that sticks to the 105% rule will save you a couple watts due to aerodynamic benefits over one that doesn't, you still have to ask yourself how many watts you'd save riding a wider tire due to reducing suspension losses. It might just be a wash, and you're still left riding a much more comfortable tire. I rode 23mm tires and noticed a benefit going to 25mm, then noticed another benefit going to 28mm, and now these 34mm tires are the most comfortable I've ever ridden, and on my 46mm deep 28-29mm wide carbon rims I doubt I've given up a thing that I'd ever notice in terms of performance. Given there's an option that would both give you wider, more comfortable tires, and also stick to the 105% rule since that seems to be important to you, I'd say you've got a perfect solution in front of you.

igs417

Actually, I don't know how much is 105% rule important to me. It difficult to find any hard data on this, especially in regard to crosswind stability. I just assumed that less than optimal setup kinda defeats the purpose of aero wheels in the first place. How big is the net impact?

I rode 28mm for two seasons (GP4000 and Mavic Yksion Pro UST). Then, after nasty Yksion failure, I switched ti 25mm GP5000 with tubes. I run them at 85/90 psi. Decline in comfort is noticeable, but not dramatic. Canyon Endurance is pretty comfortable bike, so I think it compensates a fair bit of road noise. I kinda like those GP5000 25mm. They feel faster. I don't know are they really or I gained some fitness. :-)

I was looking at WR50, but don't want to lock myself out of possibility to use 25mm tires. I am more leaning to AR56, and put 25mm front and 28mm back...

Rides4Beer

FWIW, I was riding 23mm tires that measured at 27mm on my WR46 wheels, 105% rule compliant. I switched to 28mm tires that measure at 30mm and have noticed no difference in speed or wind handling, but I they are more comfortable and handle better on descents and in curves. I'll be sticking with the bigger tires.

noodle soup

I have the 56mm wheelset that you are interested in. Currently it's set up with 30mm Schwalbe G-One Speed(tubeless) that inflate to 31.5mm. The stock Bontrager 23mm wide wheelset setup with 25mm Michelin Power Endurance(with tubes) that inflate to 27.8mm.

Using the 105% rule as a guideline, which do you think would be more aero?

Just as a side note, the 56mm wheelset with 30mm tubeless tires(and sealant), actually weighs less than the stock wheelset with tires(and tubes).

SethAZ 

The GP4000 tires were previously my standard choice. I haven't tried the GP5000s yet. I did read that they had been tested against the GP4000 and some other tires by those rolling resistance testers who have a webpage up with all sorts of measurements and did come out ahead by a couple watts or so. Probably the only reason I haven't ordered the GP5K yet is that since I tried the Compass 34mm wide tires with the extralight shells, I'm just having a very hard time imagining going back to the conventional 25mm or 28mm tires. I've also experimented with road tubeless more than once, but where I live in Arizona it's so hot that the sealant drying out is quite a pain in the butt, so I've backed off for now. One thing I did try recently was a Tubolito inner tube. I had two in, but am down to one (in the rear) due to a bad valve that was slow-leaking over a day or so that I haven't replaced yet. With the Tubolitos in I shaved off over 50g from each wheel, and the feel of them is much more like riding a latex tube, which I really like.

One thing to consider is that even if you got the 30mm-wide rims that doesn't necessarily mean you couldn't ride 25mm tires if you wanted to. On a wider rim they do tend to run wider themselves, and especially with the GP4Ks I've ridden, they seem to run a couple mm wider than advertised anyway, even on narrower rims. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a 25mm Continental tire ran at 28mm wide on that 30mm Lightbicycle rim.

With regard to the 105% rule I'm ready to believe that in fact if you follow it you'll probably have the most aero wheels you could have with the same rim over if you didn't follow it, but that doesn't make it a cast-iron mandate. A couple watts more aero is one thing, but it isn't everything, and since you can probably also save watts in suspension losses with larger tires, and certainly gain some comfort, it's a question of tradeoffs. Moreover, I'm not a racer, so chasing marginal gains like Team Sky only makes sense for someone like me if it doesn't come at much cost (either in dollars or tradeoffs such as comfort). To a really heavy rider like me, who typically rides the tops or the hoods rather than assume the most aero position theoretically possible, a couple watts just gets lost in the noise. With nothing on the line, ultimate performance is nice, but will always take a back seat to durability, reliability, rideability, and comfort.

noodle soup

I don't know if you are actually gaining watts, but the ability to ride faster over rough stretches of pavement, is certainly a benefit of wider tires/lower pressure.

Puncture resistance(or the use of sealant) with tubeless tires is another benefit. During monsoon season I used to get punctures on a regular basis. This year I haven't had one.

TimothyH

All else being equal, I wonder about the harsh(er) ride of deep wheels vs decreasing pressure to get a more forgiving ride and where the line should be drawn.

I do know that rolling resistance of the Vittoria Rubino G+ Speed tires which I use increase significantly below 85 PSI according to the rolling resistance site. For me, that's the practical limit and I won't really go lower even if it means living with the harsh(er) ride of deep rims compared to shallow alloy wheels.

Whether that harshness decreases speed on rough pavements is not something I'm convinced of.


-Tim-

SethAZ 

There are some stretches of road that I ride on where with my old aluminum bike with its narrow aluminum wheels and my 25mm or 28mm GP4K tires I had to slow down somewhat because the road surface was just so bad, but with my new (as of 2017 or so) titanium bike with the Lightbicycle wheels and the 34mm Compass tires I can ride at full speed over those same stretches of terrible road. The dampening effect of the wider/lower pressure tires was that great. On most stretches of road the difference isn't as dramatic, but those really rough patches at least demonstrate the principle.

Kimmo 

... you might forget that you need at least a 3:1 ratio for something to be aero.

Kimmo 

It's well in the range of placebo. How compliant can a wheel be, if it isn't falling apart? Get the softest wheel you can find, push down on the rim as hard as you can, and then halve the miniscule dimension it moved. The only thing wheels really have to do with compliance is rim width and its effect on tyres.

No doubt the extra noise deep rims make contribute to the placebo effect.

JonathanTeatime

Thanks for the reply, smashndash!! (Somehow didn't get a notification, so I didn't notice.)

Wow, they look almost flat at the top. And yes, I'd put even more pressure in them, but I'm also 84kg.
Last picture is exactly what I was looking for. Edge of the rim still slightly in the wind. Recently found a video where this is analyzed. Says, it trips turbulence which helps the airflow to stay attached: youtu.be/H8TZwJGrvFY?t=1443 (don't have to like the guy, but I can imagine he's right)

And good to hear about the internal nipples. Still unsure though whether the aero benefits outweigh the increased hassle when setting up tubeless (rim tape needed).

soulgazer

Hi

I`m buying a new set of carbon rims for my canyon endurance cf sl disk

I Weigh 64k and usually ride around 120k with total climb 1200m to 1800m + in good tarmac roads with some windy conditions

Will ride with continental 5000 28c (maybe tubless maybe with tube)

Can you give me some advice on which model to chose? buying from global light bicycle.

Maybe (AR36 Disc,DT SWISS 240S, 12 / 100mm, 12 / 142mm, Shimano Road 11S, straight pull, Center lock, 24H, 36T Sapim CX Ray hook, with Holes Aluminium Black)?

Other options?
Thanks

jfranci3

Save a $180 and get the DT 350 hubs. Basically same thing but 50g heavier. Even if you believe rotating weight is bad, the rotating weight at the hub is meaningless.

soulgazer

Thanks, would Chris King be much different?

For my use would deeper rims be better? AR36 or AR46

And how about the rim inner wide is it ok for 28 tyres

jfranci3

A quality hub is a quality hub. Key things in hubs: Shell/flange strength (DT and CK both fine), bearing size/type (both fine), weight (both about the same), rear hub mechanism (different - CK loud and lot of engagement; DT 18pt is quiet and just good engagement), noise (huge difference - quiet vs noisy), looks (huge difference).
Many of the rear hub mechanism differences are more important for MTBs than road bikes. The CKs have a lot of engagement points (the amount you may need to pedal when going from coasting to moving before it engages), while the DT Swiss ratchet mechanism start at "18" points and can be changed to a lot. This engagement point is moot above 8mph or so, but important if you're climbing steep, muddy hills. "18" is super great for most road needs, and the higher counts are louder.
CK hubs are all bling and quality, but maybe too much of each for the price (Bentley). DT are solid bang for the buck units (Toyota). Even the 'cheap' hubs on that list of very very decent, but I'd pay for the DT 350 over the Novatech (Mazda) for the quiet ratchet mechanism.
https://sugarwheelworks.com/wheel-co...n-and-details/


I have the AR36 w/ hooks, which I use for some 30c G-One Speed tires. That rim/width would work great for normal everyday use. I think they measured 30mm at their widest point IIRC, so 28c are a good fit. I tried 25c on them, but that's as small as I'd try to mount. At this width, the tire doesn't overlap the rim, so the rim edge looks like a plastic rim cover on a car. 28c is what that wheel is built for. I wouldn't go any narrower, as fat road tires look bad on normal rims.
(calipers tilted for image, measurement is correct for tire) AR36 w/ 30c mounted - https://imgur.com/seNpQL7
https://imgur.com/OQvMkXi


The 36mm deep wheels (U shaped) are way less sketchy in gusts than my 32mm AL DT Swiss Rims (V shaped), which can move around 4-6" in very gust winds. I wouldn't worry about going a bit deeper or going with a 36mm f and 46mm rear setup. Visually, 36mm wheels are super modest. I'd go 46mm for my road needs, but these were for gravel too where I need to think about crossing moving water.

BTW - I'd go white logos, as my white logo DT Swiss rims look better than my stealth logo LB rims to my eye.

venturi95

Wow! What a wealth of real world experience this thread has yielded. I spent an hour and skipped to the end, so forgive me if I missed something. I am looking forward to going road tubeless on carbon rims next spring, and I have one question: Sealant? I always thought it was necessary for any sort of reliability, so why no mention of sealants? Educate me, and thanks to all for posting.

jfranci3

That's a different thread/topic.

Consensus - they all have their problems. Carbon doesn't matter.

Orange Seal - generally loved, but dries out in about a month. will turn TLR tire sidewall lettering orange-ish.

Stans - most common, but doesn't seal as well.

Specialized - just came out with a 'rapid air' gunk for higher pressure sealing. might be worth a try.


There are two types of tubeless tires - tubeless ready (TLR) and tubeless (TL). TLR doesn't have a liner on the inside, lighter, sealant will seep through, and it's hard to remove the dried up gunk. TL has a smooth interior liner, doesn't need the goo to generally work, you still want the goo, and easier to clean dried up goo.

venturi95

So is there a different thread for rim tape as well as sealant?