High Speed Rail: what do other know that we don't?
#51
I'm the anecdote.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: S.E. Texas
Posts: 1,823
Bikes: '12 Schwinn, '13 Norco
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Liked 1,176 Times
in
795 Posts
You have to share roads and highways with other cars when you drive.
You have to share planes with other passengers when you fly.
The difference with trains and buses is that you can stand up and use the bathroom without pulling off the road. Flying would be fine if it didn't burn so much fuel and make so much noise and fill up the skies with traffic.
Trains would ultimately be better, but there's just no way to stop them from becoming cancelled projects that ultimately served no other purpose than to put money in people's pockets to spend on driving.
Somehow buses have to evolve as a bridge between flying and trains, but it's a huge cultural challenge for people who just can't understand the limitations of air-travel and driving because that's what they see as normal and thus accept uncritically.
You have to share planes with other passengers when you fly.
The difference with trains and buses is that you can stand up and use the bathroom without pulling off the road. Flying would be fine if it didn't burn so much fuel and make so much noise and fill up the skies with traffic.
Trains would ultimately be better, but there's just no way to stop them from becoming cancelled projects that ultimately served no other purpose than to put money in people's pockets to spend on driving.
Somehow buses have to evolve as a bridge between flying and trains, but it's a huge cultural challenge for people who just can't understand the limitations of air-travel and driving because that's what they see as normal and thus accept uncritically.
I'd walk to the city bus stop to take the city bus to get me near the intercity bus station. Ride that intercity bus until my stop, which may be in some downtown or on the side of a highway. Sometimes I could share a taxi to get me close to my destination, but that was rare when the intercity bus would drop you off in the middle of nowhere after 12am.
Plus, you get to hang out with some real weird people on buses. At least on planes, most weird people keep their mouths shut. In bus stations or on buses, OMG the things people will do and say.
My oldest kid (28) and my wife have lots of experience on intercity buses, too. In all cases we took those buses because we couldn't afford anything better at those times.
Not counting charter buses or park and ride buses, city buses and intercity buses are for people that don't want to spend much money on transportation. I don't see buses in the USA becoming express buses unless they have their own roadway. Might as well have high speed trains with their own railway.
Last edited by FiftySix; 05-12-19 at 09:58 PM.
#52
☢
Not true...people are compensated. But the process is much easier than US. Becuase in US, a small hand full of people can derail an effort. This is what is known as tyranny of the minority. Society does not live up to its potential because a small hand full of people refusing to accept progress.
There are many other remedies and possible cure that are being artificially held back because there's too much money to be made selling people alternative drugs that merely mask the symptoms. The entire medical industry works under that paradigm, with very little incentive to advance forward.
There are many others, but its petroleum that is number one on this list. Since it is unlikely a HSR system would be powered by fossil fuel (most certainly not directly), that's the industry that stands to lose the most if the system were ever implemented. Look there if you want to find where the true resistance originates.
#53
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
Not true...people are compensated. But the process is much easier than US. Becuase in US, a small hand full of people can derail an effort. This is what is known as tyranny of the minority. Society does not live up to its potential because a small hand full of people refusing to accept progress.
#54
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times
in
1,031 Posts
Some people seem to be overwhelmed by their own fantasies and conspiracy theories.
Nobody will be listening if and when an actual good idea does emerge from an endless static of murky, quirky and irrational "critical thoughts".
Nobody will be listening if and when an actual good idea does emerge from an endless static of murky, quirky and irrational "critical thoughts".
#56
☢
#57
I'm the anecdote.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: S.E. Texas
Posts: 1,823
Bikes: '12 Schwinn, '13 Norco
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Liked 1,176 Times
in
795 Posts
Are you saying you don't vote?
I tell you I think voting in America these days is just to make us think we are making a difference. It's pobably been that way a long time, though.
I've been voting since the mid 1980s and no matter if the person I voted for gained office or not, government proceeded with its own will, not mine.
I have the appearance of a citizen, but in reality I'm just a subject.
I tell you I think voting in America these days is just to make us think we are making a difference. It's pobably been that way a long time, though.
I've been voting since the mid 1980s and no matter if the person I voted for gained office or not, government proceeded with its own will, not mine.
I have the appearance of a citizen, but in reality I'm just a subject.
#58
☢
Are you saying you don't vote?
I tell you I think voting in America these days is just to make us think we are making a difference. It's pobably been that way a long time, though.
I've been voting since the mid 1980s and no matter if the person I voted for gained office or not, government proceeded with its own will, not mine.
I have the appearance of a citizen, but in reality I'm just a subject.
I tell you I think voting in America these days is just to make us think we are making a difference. It's pobably been that way a long time, though.
I've been voting since the mid 1980s and no matter if the person I voted for gained office or not, government proceeded with its own will, not mine.
I have the appearance of a citizen, but in reality I'm just a subject.
#59
Senior Member
1. USA should definitely develop HSR. Long past due. Time was (a long time ago), rail opened up The West. It's still a key shipping modality.
2. However, there are forces working against. Established investments in auto/roads. Extremists on both ends -- you'll get squawking from both lefty environmentalists and righty individualists. Including cyclists -- imagine the uproar when everyone's favorite rail-trail is up for closure for conversion back to rail use. The fact that most rail rights of ways have been reverted. Ford recently said they are not a car company, but a transportation company. That's a move in the right direction -- if rail is ever going to pick up steam, it's going to need financial incentive to do so.
3. Texas is way too big, east-west. One of the first HSR routes I'd run if I were King would be Jacksonville FL to San Diego CA, along I-10. For those without a sense of scale, map the distance from Jacksonville to Houston, and then from Houston to San Diego...
4. The problem isn't roads and traffic, it's drivers. Over in P&R, there's a thread about an Exxon study from 1982 which tracks the increase in atmospheric CO2 fairly accurately. I checked, and world population went from 4.6billion in 1982 to 7.7billion today. The problem is people. If we don't rein in population and scale it back to sustainable levels, it will be done for/to us...
2. However, there are forces working against. Established investments in auto/roads. Extremists on both ends -- you'll get squawking from both lefty environmentalists and righty individualists. Including cyclists -- imagine the uproar when everyone's favorite rail-trail is up for closure for conversion back to rail use. The fact that most rail rights of ways have been reverted. Ford recently said they are not a car company, but a transportation company. That's a move in the right direction -- if rail is ever going to pick up steam, it's going to need financial incentive to do so.
3. Texas is way too big, east-west. One of the first HSR routes I'd run if I were King would be Jacksonville FL to San Diego CA, along I-10. For those without a sense of scale, map the distance from Jacksonville to Houston, and then from Houston to San Diego...
4. The problem isn't roads and traffic, it's drivers. Over in P&R, there's a thread about an Exxon study from 1982 which tracks the increase in atmospheric CO2 fairly accurately. I checked, and world population went from 4.6billion in 1982 to 7.7billion today. The problem is people. If we don't rein in population and scale it back to sustainable levels, it will be done for/to us...
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
1. USA should definitely develop HSR. Long past due. Time was (a long time ago), rail opened up The West. It's still a key shipping modality.
2. However, there are forces working against. Established investments in auto/roads. Extremists on both ends -- you'll get squawking from both lefty environmentalists and righty individualists. Including cyclists -- imagine the uproar when everyone's favorite rail-trail is up for closure for conversion back to rail use. The fact that most rail rights of ways have been reverted. Ford recently said they are not a car company, but a transportation company. That's a move in the right direction -- if rail is ever going to pick up steam, it's going to need financial incentive to do so.
3. Texas is way too big, east-west. One of the first HSR routes I'd run if I were King would be Jacksonville FL to San Diego CA, along I-10. For those without a sense of scale, map the distance from Jacksonville to Houston, and then from Houston to San Diego...
4. The problem isn't roads and traffic, it's drivers. Over in P&R, there's a thread about an Exxon study from 1982 which tracks the increase in atmospheric CO2 fairly accurately. I checked, and world population went from 4.6billion in 1982 to 7.7billion today. The problem is people. If we don't rein in population and scale it back to sustainable levels, it will be done for/to us...
2. However, there are forces working against. Established investments in auto/roads. Extremists on both ends -- you'll get squawking from both lefty environmentalists and righty individualists. Including cyclists -- imagine the uproar when everyone's favorite rail-trail is up for closure for conversion back to rail use. The fact that most rail rights of ways have been reverted. Ford recently said they are not a car company, but a transportation company. That's a move in the right direction -- if rail is ever going to pick up steam, it's going to need financial incentive to do so.
3. Texas is way too big, east-west. One of the first HSR routes I'd run if I were King would be Jacksonville FL to San Diego CA, along I-10. For those without a sense of scale, map the distance from Jacksonville to Houston, and then from Houston to San Diego...
4. The problem isn't roads and traffic, it's drivers. Over in P&R, there's a thread about an Exxon study from 1982 which tracks the increase in atmospheric CO2 fairly accurately. I checked, and world population went from 4.6billion in 1982 to 7.7billion today. The problem is people. If we don't rein in population and scale it back to sustainable levels, it will be done for/to us...
For those of of us on the West coast there is no bang for the buck in a HSR from Merced to Bakersfield. Not at more than 77 billion in unfunded grants. At least it doesn’t impress me having been to both cities.
If it can be funded privately I wouldn’t care because people should be able to spend their money however they want. I don’t see building something the tax payers will not support.
The last part is spot on however. We simply lack the ability to support run away population. That makes HSR just a regional issue and not a solution for world wide sustainability. In my point of view. Much like the article I posted in market watch. We are attacking the symptoms not the cause.
#61
I'm the anecdote.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: S.E. Texas
Posts: 1,823
Bikes: '12 Schwinn, '13 Norco
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Liked 1,176 Times
in
795 Posts
Didn't turn on my internet humor due to lack of emoticons or fake html tags declaring [/sarcasm], etc.
#62
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
You might have a better point than you imagine. A space station or Biosphere is something they can and do have. And what is the catch to how sustainable those two examples are? The number of people in them. Increase the number by 25 percent and is a biosphere still sustainable? Notice it isn’t a transportation issue that endangers sustainability? It is the number that live there. Why? Because it is a closed system. The earth is a closed system. Google maximum sustainable human population. See if building an HSR changes that?
Making a point for HSR against planes is one thing. Trying to add sustainability to the argument is not going to prove we need HSR. Once again my opinion based on population studies.
Making a point for HSR against planes is one thing. Trying to add sustainability to the argument is not going to prove we need HSR. Once again my opinion based on population studies.
What you don't like about population growth is density. You have a preference for less people to share more space, but it's not a natural limit to population growth and sustainability; just a subjective preference to have less people in an area instead of more.
You want to have less people because you want the freedom to drive.
So basically you're whole population limits argument comes down to you not wanting to give up driving.
That explains why you come on a car-free forum to argue with people who are for reducing driving, pavement, and sprawl and the unsustainability that comes with them.
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
You're missing my point about the space station. If humans can live sustainably on a space station, then there is no limit to population growth on Earth. A space station is a self-contained system that doesn't affect anything outside of it.
What you don't like about population growth is density. You have a preference for less people to share more space, but it's not a natural limit to population growth and sustainability; just a subjective preference to have less people in an area instead of more.
You want to have less people because you want the freedom to drive.
So basically you're whole population limits argument comes down to you not wanting to give up driving.
That explains why you come on a car-free forum to argue with people who are for reducing driving, pavement, and sprawl and the unsustainability that comes with them.
What you don't like about population growth is density. You have a preference for less people to share more space, but it's not a natural limit to population growth and sustainability; just a subjective preference to have less people in an area instead of more.
You want to have less people because you want the freedom to drive.
So basically you're whole population limits argument comes down to you not wanting to give up driving.
That explains why you come on a car-free forum to argue with people who are for reducing driving, pavement, and sprawl and the unsustainability that comes with them.
I say again, what happens when you add 25 percent more people to a space station already supporting 100 people? They are no longer sustainable. You have to increase supply to feed and water that many people. Maybe if you would have experienced being on a long cruise on a ship with enough water and food for the journey a
only to pick up extra people in the doldrums. I know you don’t know but take a guess.
#64
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 8,050
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
I've waited for many a train in this town, it's normal when Heinz Ore-Ida Foods is nearby.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#65
☢
#66
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 8,050
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
Union Pacific is picking up your tater tots and onions, the wait is worth it.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#67
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
I say again, what happens when you add 25 percent more people to a space station already supporting 100 people? They are no longer sustainable. You have to increase supply to feed and water that many people. Maybe if you would have experienced being on a long cruise on a ship with enough water and food for the journey a
only to pick up extra people in the doldrums. I know you don’t know but take a guess.
only to pick up extra people in the doldrums. I know you don’t know but take a guess.
You don't think that impairs the ability of the system to sustain life permanently? You don't think it reduces the number of humans and other organisms that can live sustainably?
Think of it in terms of two space-stations. In one station, tons of machines and robots are employed and take up much of the space and use much of the energy and other resources. In the other, there are less machines and robots because humans use their own manual labor more diligently to manage their resources and avoid wasting space. Which space station is more human-friendly?
#68
Sophomore Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,690
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1628 Post(s)
Liked 1,057 Times
in
631 Posts
You're missing my point about the space station. If humans can live sustainably on a space station, then there is no limit to population growth on Earth. A space station is a self-contained system that doesn't affect anything outside of it.
What you don't like about population growth is density. You have a preference for less people to share more space, but it's not a natural limit to population growth and sustainability; just a subjective preference to have less people in an area instead of more.
You want to have less people because you want the freedom to drive.
So basically you're whole population limits argument comes down to you not wanting to give up driving.
That explains why you come on a car-free forum to argue with people who are for reducing driving, pavement, and sprawl and the unsustainability that comes with them.
What you don't like about population growth is density. You have a preference for less people to share more space, but it's not a natural limit to population growth and sustainability; just a subjective preference to have less people in an area instead of more.
You want to have less people because you want the freedom to drive.
So basically you're whole population limits argument comes down to you not wanting to give up driving.
That explains why you come on a car-free forum to argue with people who are for reducing driving, pavement, and sprawl and the unsustainability that comes with them.
#69
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
To the extent people LCF within sprawling autocentric (sub)urban cities, they basically already live aboard space stations, only the space stations have been built on Earth because it's easier than moving all the pavement, steel, and other materials up into orbit.
#71
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
Maybe you should start a thread on sustainable space stations and whether they would be more or less sustainable with everyone driving or getting around by other means.
#72
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,077
Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times
in
972 Posts
It's funny how it's possible to speak to a tangent in a way that further diverts a discussion from the relevant sequence of thoughts that led up to the tangent.
Maybe you should start a thread on sustainable space stations and whether they would be more or less sustainable with everyone driving or getting around by other means.
Maybe you should start a thread on sustainable space stations and whether they would be more or less sustainable with everyone driving or getting around by other means.
#73
Banned
It's funny how it's possible to speak to a tangent in a way that further diverts a discussion from the relevant sequence of thoughts that led up to the tangent.
Maybe you should start a thread on sustainable space stations and whether they would be more or less sustainable with everyone driving or getting around by other means.
Maybe you should start a thread on sustainable space stations and whether they would be more or less sustainable with everyone driving or getting around by other means.
#74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
Idk if you are just wanting to cause the thread to get flushed away for some reason, or if you are just innocently wanting to discuss space stations.
I would start a new thread about space stations and post a link here, but I don't think the mods would accept it as an appropriate topic for LCF. I could be wrong, of course.
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,077
Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times
in
972 Posts
If humans can live sustainably on a space station, then there is no limit to population growth on Earth.
Likes For tyrion: